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Old 06-13-2004, 09:21 AM   #16
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Hello salim2, I'm not going to argue facts right now but just ask – what do you think should happen now? What is the next step in this conflict?

BTW, just out of curiosity – where do you live?
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Old 06-13-2004, 09:21 AM   #17
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I did and frankly I did not like what I saw, those sites all have the usual crap on them showing innocent children sitting on top of rubble that just happened to be covering a tunnel complex, how somehow the Israeli state is responsible for the terrorists attacking its civilians, there are links to revisionst historians and other such sites on those links, I just do not think that one can get a proper context of the current situation from sites that hold the opinion that terrorism and violence against innocent civilians is justified.

I am refering here to
pmwatch.org
and
http://alhewar.com/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/ seems to be the only legitimate site posted, it actually uses decent sources and presents them in a proper context as well as clearly stating its agenda as a header.

"Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest." - Thomas Friedman
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:43 AM   #18
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A_Wanderer

You can’t sell this crap to me; we know the truth and your Jewish propaganda can be declared somewhere else. David duke and Roger Garaudy are the most accurate info resource, Read more below.

Israel is killing easily philistine’s children everyday but it can’t defeat them and THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE. This is the fact no body want t o admits.

Quran:

[ 5: 33. On account of this, WE prescribed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. And our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, Yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land ]


USA and West are using all of their might’s to oppress Arab people in particular and Muslims in general, it started since the beginning of last century when they supported the creation of Israel against Arab will?


Terrorism is defined by the American government as the threat or the use of violence to advance a political cause by individuals or groups, whether acting for or in opposition to established governmental authority, when such actions are intended to shock, stun, or intimidate a target group wider than the immediate victims. Actually such a general definition will include all wars of liberation from the American War of Independence to the French Revolution. The worst aspect and perhaps the most common feature of terrorism is the unleashing of violence against innocent civilians.

The State of Israel is the most recent example of the establishment of a state by terrorism. It was established by Jewish terrorist groups, the most infamous of which was the Stern Gang.



Roger Garaudy publishes new book on Zionism

The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics by Roger Garaudy

The Israeli-Zionist Lobby in the United States by Roger Garaudy

The Israeli-Zionist Lobby in France by Roger Garaudy

Israel, Zionism, and the Racial Double Standard
Copyright 2001 By Paul Grubach

Ancient Jerusalem By James Baikie D.D.F.R.A.S.ž

Walks in and Around Jeruslem By J.E.Hanauer.ž

The Story of Jerusalem By Colonel Sir C.M Watson.ž
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:51 AM   #19
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Originally posted by salim2
USA and West are using all of their might’s to oppress Arab people in particular and Muslims in general, it started since the beginning of last century when they supported the creation of Israel against Arab will?
Oh yes, we are definitely oppressing the Arab people here in the USA.

The Arab will....more like the Arab won't, as in won't accept Israel ever.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:52 AM   #20
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Israel seems to be pretty bad at killing Palestinian children considering the rate their own parents manage to do it by brainwashing them into becoming bombers.

The facts are as follows, Israel was created as a homeland for the Jewish people however it is not exclusively Jewish. It was founded less than 30 years after all the other nations in the region and although violence brough about some pressure it was the Holocaust (a blood letting of incomprehensible proportion of the Jewish people that people like David Duke and Roger Garaudy fail to comprehend) that gave the movement widespread support among the international community. Israel has more right to exist than any Arab country in the region, it is more cohesive and stable and is a true nation-state unlike the loose federations of bedoin tribes that seem to constitute every other arab country.

Israel is a proper liberal democracy and as such the actions of the state have accountability and oversight by the people of the nation.

The surrounding 22 Arab countries are 640 times larger than Israel, how exactly is it that one country of 6.5 million inhabitants that occupies such a minute space and contains such a small population is deemed such a threat to Arab interests when it has not conquested any important muslim lands? If Israel really wanted power it would invade the Gulf Oil fields and not the stragegicaly significant but resource lacking Gaza, West Bank, Siani etc.

In regards to the glorious freedom fighters that are persecuted by the evil westerners and zionists please tell me, are they heroic?

Does a heroic and noble group of fighters ambush a car and open fire on it as it is driving along a road until it comes to a stop?

Are they still heroes when the go up to the car to find a pregnant woman bleending profusely in a car riddled with bullet holes, 4 little girls are there as well who are clinging to eachother in shock about what has just happened, blood covering the carpet of the car?

Is proceeding to murder a pregnant woman in cold blood heroic, point blank with an automatic weapon a heroic deed, would it warrant celebration for it, is there honour here? Now there is a car with one dead body and 4 little girls clinging to eachother in fear what is the heroic course of action, is taking that gun an turning it on innocent fucking children honourable, is that how freedom is won by honest and good freedom fighters, blowing little girls skulls apart close range?

Is there honour in such barbarity?

The fact is that palestinian terrorism in unadaulterated evil, I cannot use a less strong word, it the sum of a vile and barbarous culture of death that has been fostered by "religious men" and their foreign aplogists. Palestinians run their affairs in a way that breeds violence, it is an inevitability that such a machine of death will be stopped.

I know in my heart that there is no moral equivilancy here, the IDF is a trained millitary that performs its duty for its government. A government that has a duty to protect its citizens from harm. It does this by fighting the scourge of terrorism where it lies, there is no difference between an innocent person being killed in an IDF operation and one killed in a terrorist attack is that they are both victims of Palestinian terrorism. Hamas will murder anybody that gets in their way and it is because of this nobody will speak out against them. Terrorism does not bring justice to the Palestinians it brings only bloodshed.

For all the talk about being victims of the Jews, Americans and the West the Arab people only have themselves to blame. They should learn to work for peaceful resolution of problems and not murder innocents to force resolution. They should understand that the one thing that seperates America and Israel from them is that the people in a Liberal Democracy can speak their minds, they can spread new ideas and come up with real solutions but at the same time bem willing to fight to preserve those rights. Israel and America are not the problem, its the victim mentalit, when the Arabs can get onto their own feet and improve themselves from within their societies they will be better off and you will see a true and just peace.

Go ahead and call me a rascist zionist islamaphobe, I would wear that badge with pride rather than be complicit in the evil of terrorists. May peace be found when the will of good men conquers the evil of the weak.

This post is in memory of Tali Hatuel as well as her daughters Hila (11), Hadar, (9), Roni (7), Merav (2) may they rest in peace.

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Old 06-15-2004, 02:57 AM   #21
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What did USA do to Iraq/Afghanistan/philistine/Iran etc you name it.
Oil prices is very low and should be $ 100.00 because of US policies and interruptions.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:02 AM   #22
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We are discussion the correct info sources which every body should understand. We are not interesting in propagandas.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:03 AM   #23
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The US gets most of its oil from the Americas - Venezuala, Mexico as well as Canada and Alaska.

Oil imperialism seems to be a rather trendy subject these days however I think that it lacks substance, what sense does it make to remove a dictator from a country like Iraq who is desperate to sell his oil and place a regime that has control over its price and has a degree of bargaining power? It makes no sense, if the US was after oil it would get very cheap oil from Saddam who was in a weak bargaining position.
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:21 AM   #24
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salim2:
It's good that you are not interesed in propagandas so stop repeating this propaganda of a innocent palestinensian country which is slaved by Israel and the US.

You can read in other threads that i'm condeming Mr. Sharons behaviour but that dosn't make me one-eyed i can still see that Mr. Arafat does everything he can (like mr. sharon) to make that situation worse for both sides.

And let's face it, the other arab countrys just help the palestinensians to keep that conflict alive.
Before Israel palestinensians never had own country and their countries had no interest after the war (iniciated by arab nations against israel) to take them back into their countries.
I have no problem in giving Israel Palestines and Kurds a souvereign country but please - don't one-eyed on that situation down there.
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Old 06-15-2004, 08:48 AM   #25
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Salim2, why won't you answer my question? What do you think the solution to this conflict should be?


Reading your posts will only reinforce the feelings that there is no one to talk peace with on the other side. Please correct me.

I feel sick whenever I hear of innocent Palestinians getting killed. But reading your posts also makes me feel, that to your opinion the murdering of innocent Israelis is justified. Please correct that thought as well.
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Old 06-15-2004, 09:11 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Israel seems to be pretty bad at killing Palestinian children considering the rate their own parents manage to do it by brainwashing them into becoming bombers.
I don't feel like commenting on the rest of the thread. Salim2 seems unable to give a straight answer.

But I would be very reluctant to say that parents brainwash their children into becoming bombers. No matter where you live, people generally don't want their children to die.

I think there are other more plausible explantions for the actions of a suicide bomber.
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Old 06-15-2004, 09:28 AM   #27
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I think that there is a fair ammount of evidence to show that many of those that become bombers are fed this myth about martyrdom from their own homes, you see parents wanting to raise their children to murder. I am not saying that this is the template of a Palestinian family at all however looking at those that commit such deeds the way that bombers are treated in the community after their death and the lies that are fed through the education system seem to mould them into illogical killers.

It looks very much like a brainwashing program to me but one that is carried out on a large scale by the PA and terrorist organizations.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
No matter where you live, people generally don't want their children to die.
Generally, yes. When glory, honor and reward are attached to dying for your god, then you get a different result.
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Old 06-15-2004, 11:03 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat


No matter where you live, people generally don't want their children to die.
Remember that in some countries children are killed by their parents because of the wrong gender.
So i'd say also your comment is logical for us it seems to be wrong.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by salim2
A_Wanderer

You can’t sell this crap to me; we know the truth and your Jewish propaganda can be declared somewhere else. David duke and Roger Garaudy are the most accurate info resource, Read more below.
You're claiming DAVID DUKE as an accurate info resource? You have to be kidding. The man claims the holocaust never happened and was a member of the KKK. If anyone isn't familiar with him, just type his name into a search engine and you'll find hundreds of racist websites singing his praises. Roger Garaudy is hardly much better, just another well-known holocaust denier.

I can't believe you talk about "Jewish propaganda" and then claim David Duke is an accurate source of information. How about you taking your anti-semitic propaganda elsewhere?
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