"La Tour de Europe" of Bush

[Klaus]

Today:
Italy:

Mr. Bush gave the Presidential Medal of Freedom to the Pope and the Pope condemmed Mr. the current mid-east politics but praised the humanitarian efforts in Africa of the current US government.

Later Mr. Bush celebrated the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Rome with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi (Who sympathizes with many ideas of the Facist ex dictator of Italy Mussolini)

While outside the police (10.000 men) met protestors (7,000 up to 500,000 people, depending on which sources you call reliable) who wanted to tell Mr. Bush what they think about the current politics of the USA.

I think Mr. Bush did a pretty good job today. Of course i don't like that an american president shakes hands with a man like mr. berlusconi...
..but well i don't expect that much from Mr. Bush anyway.

And.. at least no protestor was killed yet.

 

[melon]

I see that when it comes to a Republican, the Pope is more than willing to look the other way to the fact he lead a war that he was opposed to and is also the governor who presided over the most prisoner executions in the U.S. (if not for all time, then, at least, since the death penalty was reinstated after the 1970s). So while the Catholic Church is busy condemning liberal politicians who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, it is nice to see that the Pope is consistent with politicians that defy the Catholic Church's opposition to both the Iraq war and the death penalty.

I hate hypocrites, even if they think of themselves to be one step below God and one step above humanity.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

melon:

John Paul II reiterated his condemnation of the US-led war in Iraq in his meeting with Mr Bush, i wouldn't call that "look the other way"

 

[melon]

melon:

John Paul II reiterated his condemnation of the US-led war in Iraq in his meeting with Mr Bush, i wouldn't call that "look the other way"

Bullshit. I don't see the American bishops now trying to deny communion to politicians who supported the war or those who support the death penalty.

But I would expect this from a morally bankrupt church that pays more attention to $$$ that the wealthy conservative Catholics bring to the collection plate.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

Are we talking about the pope or American bishops?
Or do you think the pope is responsible for the hypocritic bishops, because he's the head of the system and has therefore a lack of credibility too?

While i agree with you that christian churches in the states should never ever support war and deathpenalty and i also dissagree with the pope in many things i didn't think he should have refused to meet the US President.
I think it was enough protest that this old man condemned Bushs politics while Bush gives him the highest honor the US can give.

 

[melon]

Well, if you want to know what the good ol' Pope did after the Bush meeting...

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/06/060404bushPope.htm

Same-sex marriage represents nothing more than "self-centered demands" erroneously depicted as human rights, Pope John Paul II declared Friday, following a meeting with President George W. Bush.

While much of the meeting focused on the Church's opposition to the war in Iraq the two were able agreed on their opposition to gay marriage.

Immediately after the meeting with Bush, the pontiff held a separate audience with visiting U.S. bishops where he told them that the church's position on same-sex unions must be driven home in the face of "erroneous yet pervasive thinking."

"It is your special responsibility for evangelizing culture and promoting Christian values in society and public life," the Pope told the bishops.

This included not only gay marriage but abortion, the aged pope said, slurring his words making him difficult at times to understand.

"Rights are at times reduced to self-centered demands: the growth of prostitution and pornography in the name of adult choice, the acceptance of abortion in the name of women's rights, the approval of same sex unions in the name of homosexual rights," he said.

He urged church leaders to be courageous despite detractors who call the church bigoted.

"Ambiguous moral positions, the distortion of reason by particular interest groups . . . are just some examples of a perspective of life which fails to seek truth itself and then abandons the search for the ultimate goal and meaning of human existence," John Paul said.

The Pope, clearly, could have chosen to told the bishops to put up a fight against the death penalty. However, he has consciously chosen not to; instead, he has chosen to focus on issues that make conservatives gleeful.

I miss the church I once believed in, with blissful ignorance. Knowing what it really is makes me hate it; nothing more than politicians in imperial-fashioned robes who try to assert infallibility and spout mythic speech on issues they know nothing about and don't care to. I take GREAT OFFENSE to being lumped into the same category as prostitution, pornography, and abortion--all three of which are clear behavioral choices. Being gay is not, and the "Catholic" solution is nothing short of loneliness and self-loathing.

F*ck them. The Pope and Dubya can have a great time in hell, as far as I'm concerned.

Melon

 

[melon]

I think it was enough protest that this old man condemned Bushs politics while Bush gives him the highest honor the US can give.

He gave him a token slap on the wrist, while, implicitly, his American bishops try and sway the election towards the Republican Party by all-but threatening excommunication to Catholics who don't vote "pro-life" and "defend marriage." I think the Church should have its tax-exempt status removed for being a political organization. The Christian Coalition does the same thing, but far more overtly, and is classified as a PAC, not a religious organization.

Melon

 

[verte76]

The day after the bishop in Colorado Springs came out with a statement threatening to ban pro-choice and/or pro-gay marriage Catholics from receiving the Eucharist, the blogs were full of articles congratulating the bishop for screwing up the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church. I am very strongly opposed to the Church being mixed up in politics to the point of denying communion to Politician X and Voter X. You'd think we were still living in the days when the Emperors and Popes were hurling excommunications and cannon balls at each other over control of the church and state. The clergy should run the church, the politicians should run the state, and that's that. That's why the Founding Fathers separated religion and the state, decreeing that the state should not be in the business of establishing religious practices or beliefs for the nation.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Obviously the church is terrified it will lose the majority of its priests and nuns if gay marriage becomes accepted.

 

[Klaus]

Well i can understand lots of critics according the pope (and even more critics addressed to mr. bush) but i still think that the critics presented here had nothing to do with the popes reacton to mr. bush these days.

joyfulgirl:
I have no problem with gay mariage but i don't think that everyone who is against gay mariage does it "to please his conservative members" There are quite a few hints in the bible (Leviticus 18,22 and Lev. 20,13) that might lead you to a opinion where you don't want to support gay mariage in your chuch (and this shouldn't have ANY affect to people who don't belong to that church)
But i think it's legitime that a confession (and of course the pope) can have a pro. or con. opinion

 

[joyfulgirl]

klaus - you missed the joke. I meant that represssed (or oppressed) gays and lesbians have been hiding behind the clergy (i.e., becoming priests and nuns) for centuries because they couldn't be themselves, so that if the church starts accepting gays a good deal of its clergy will come out and abandon the church. A joke but one with a grain of truth.

 

[Klaus]

joyfulgirl:
yes, i missed the joke

 

[valentina]

Klaus, a little remark: Berlusconi (that I don't like) is not exactly a fascist.

And second: we have marches in Italy and not always people ended dead!

Rome was stuck during those days just to be sure that nothing wrong happened.
We can be civil people, that's why no serious troubles happened during Bush visit.

The protests were in general against the war and the drammatic situation it has brought all around the world!

 

[Klaus]

valentina:
He isn't a fascist but he praised the former italian fascist regime several times and he played down the doings under B.Mussolini.

And second: we have marches in Italy and not always people ended dead!

Rome was stuck during those days just to be sure that nothing wrong happened.

I know that Italy isn't china - "just" one demonstrator was shot by the police.

And i have no problem with italian people - i like italy in general.
I just have a problem with the current italian government and i can't understand why Mr. Haider of austria was treated worse than Mr. Berlusconi of italy.

 

[verte76]

Klaus, my Italian niece (she was born and raised in Rome, her mother is a native Italian, she just turned 18!) can't stand Berlisconi. I don't think she went to the demonstration last week, but she went to a demonstration before the Iraq war started. Her mother dropped her off at the demonstration, she would have demonstrated also but she had to work. Then she came to the United States and complained about the government when we asked her about it. They want him out.

 

[STING2]

First, lets remember that Italy is a democracy. Second, not all Italians hate Berlisconi. Italy currently has the lowest unemployment rate in its history thanks to Berlisconi. In addition, Berlisconi has pushed through reforms to improve the Italian economy despite all the opposition from the left who would prefer the laws of the past. My friends in Italy like Berlisconi and plan to vote for him.

 

[joyfulgirl]

My Italian friends, both the ones who live in Italy and the ones who live in NYC, are horrified by Berlusconi and want him out.

 

[Klaus]

STING2:
I think there are some things going on in Italy which are more important than economy.
Calling Concentration-camp like institutions of Berlosconis times as Holidaycamps shows me what's going on in his brain

verte76/joyfulgirl:
Also i'm sad that the italian people voted him i know that they are as honest as any other nations citizens

 

[verte76]

The Italian branch of my family doesn't even know anyone who voted for Berlusconi. They have connections in Rome and Forli. They don't know anyone in their workplaces or schools who voted for him. Yes, Italy is a democracy. But it's clear that there are some people who don't support his government.

 

[valentina]

STING2:
I think there are some things going on in Italy which are more important than economy.
Calling Concentration-camp like institutions of Berlosconis times as Holidaycamps shows me what's going on in his brain

verte76/joyfulgirl:
Also i'm sad that the italian people voted him i know that they are as honest as any other nations citizens

Berlusconi is able to say a LOT of icredible stupind things!
As for the times he said to an Austrian or German politic that he imagined him in a movie, playing the role of the Kap? (member of SS). No comment about this! I felt so much shamed that day!!!

Yes, unemployment rate is law now, but it's just because a lot of short-time jobs (in call-centres, for instance) were created. I'm worryed that in a few months the rate will be higher.

It's election time here -- for European Parliament.
Berlusconi's party get less votes than in the past.
I'm so HAPPY with that!!

Hope this will happen also in the next political elections!

 

[valentina]

The thing that scares me the most about Berlusconi is that he'g got the control on three TVs + lots of newspapers.

Thank God my people is getting to know that's this is an intolerable thing!

 

[verte76]

Valentina, that's one thing my niece complains about--Berlusconi owns so much of the press! They don't like anything about him!
That "role-playing" thing he did doesn't sound so cool either. Ugh.

 

[valentina]

I was astonished when I knew he was elected to the last elections!

it won't happened again!

 

[kaig]

i can't understand why Mr. Haider of austria was treated worse than Mr. Berlusconi of italy.

Mr. Haider is a nationalist and a xenophobic... Mr. Berlusconi is brainless, but not nationalist or xenophobic...
he wanna be a great politician, but he's not that.
in Italy you can find Mr. Bossi similar to Mr. Haider, more than Berlusca.

Italy currently has the lowest unemployment rate in its history thanks to Berlisconi

what do you mean about "unemplyment"?
a lot of people change job 3 or 4 times every year (if they're lucky), working for 7-8 months and standing home for the rest.
so, a man or a woman who changes job 3 or 4 times during the year, then is counted like 3 or 4 separate "new employed people"...
how much easier is it like this?

In addition, Berlisconi has pushed through reforms to improve the Italian economy despite all the opposition from the left who would prefer the laws of the past.

I don't know how the Italian foreign economy has got better, but domestic economy is getting worse.
inflation is growing up every day, and people's salaries stand still the same.
Italians' buying power is getting lower every day, and politicians go on saying that people should spend more money to help the Italian economy.
they're completely crazy!

 

[melon]

Italians' buying power is getting lower every day, and politicians go on saying that people should spend more money to help the Italian economy.
they're completely crazy!

Welcome to America!

Melon

 

[Klaus]

Welcome to Italy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3829241.stm

Mr Berlusconi's Forza Italia party suffered heavy losses in the 12-13 June European and local vote.

He has now claimed that some ballot papers marked in favour of his Forza Italia party were cancelled by officials.

Mr Berlusconi said his relatively-new Forza Italia party included "a lot of naive people" who were easily taken in.

"They (the left) have an army of professionals who manage to make fools of the amateurs on our side, and put extra vote after vote into their count and fewer into ours," Mr Berlusconi said.

Of course it's not his but the fault of the big satan the "left" ;-)

kaig:
Since Silvio Berlusconi claims that "our civilization" is superior i'd call that a great fundament for nationalism.

 

[valentina]

Of course it's not his but the fault of the big satan the "left" ;-)

kaig:
Since Silvio Berlusconi claims that "our civilization" is superior i'd call that a great fundament for nationalism.

Yes, Berlusconi is always blaiming "Communists" of being the worse of our Country...

When he's in danger, he just blaims them, as if this could solve all his problems!

 

[DrTeeth]

And to think the Dutch biggest political party is in the same European fraction as Belusconi is.

 

[verte76]

Yes, Berlusconi is always blaiming "Communists" of being the worse of our Country...

When he's in danger, he just blaims them, as if this could solve all his problems!

This sounds familiar.

 

[kaig]

Welcome to Italy:
.....
.....
.....
Of course it's not his but the fault of the big satan the "left" ;-)

he never misses the chance to make a fool of himself in front of the world... it [he] is shameful...

kaig:
Since Silvio Berlusconi claims that "our civilization" is superior i'd call that a great fundament for nationalism.

what you wrote is not wrong, but there is one thing that a lot of non-italian people usually don't seem to notice: Berlusca usually doesn't know the sense of what he says, so he always says a lot of bullshits.