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Old 06-04-2004, 05:13 PM   #1
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"La Tour de Europe" of Bush

Today:
Italy:



Mr. Bush gave the Presidential Medal of Freedom to the Pope and the Pope condemmed Mr. the current mid-east politics but praised the humanitarian efforts in Africa of the current US government.

Later Mr. Bush celebrated the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Rome with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi (Who sympathizes with many ideas of the Facist ex dictator of Italy Mussolini)

While outside the police (10.000 men) met protestors (7,000 up to 500,000 people, depending on which sources you call reliable) who wanted to tell Mr. Bush what they think about the current politics of the USA.

I think Mr. Bush did a pretty good job today. Of course i don't like that an american president shakes hands with a man like mr. berlusconi...
..but well i don't expect that much from Mr. Bush anyway.

And.. at least no protestor was killed yet.
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Old 06-04-2004, 05:22 PM   #2
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I see that when it comes to a Republican, the Pope is more than willing to look the other way to the fact he lead a war that he was opposed to and is also the governor who presided over the most prisoner executions in the U.S. (if not for all time, then, at least, since the death penalty was reinstated after the 1970s). So while the Catholic Church is busy condemning liberal politicians who are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, it is nice to see that the Pope is consistent with politicians that defy the Catholic Church's opposition to both the Iraq war and the death penalty.

I hate hypocrites, even if they think of themselves to be one step below God and one step above humanity.

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Old 06-04-2004, 05:35 PM   #3
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melon:

John Paul II reiterated his condemnation of the US-led war in Iraq in his meeting with Mr Bush, i wouldn't call that "look the other way"
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Old 06-04-2004, 05:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
melon:

John Paul II reiterated his condemnation of the US-led war in Iraq in his meeting with Mr Bush, i wouldn't call that "look the other way"
Bullshit. I don't see the American bishops now trying to deny communion to politicians who supported the war or those who support the death penalty.

But I would expect this from a morally bankrupt church that pays more attention to $$$ that the wealthy conservative Catholics bring to the collection plate.

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Old 06-04-2004, 06:29 PM   #5
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Are we talking about the pope or American bishops?
Or do you think the pope is responsible for the hypocritic bishops, because he's the head of the system and has therefore a lack of credibility too?

While i agree with you that christian churches in the states should never ever support war and deathpenalty and i also dissagree with the pope in many things i didn't think he should have refused to meet the US President.
I think it was enough protest that this old man condemned Bushs politics while Bush gives him the highest honor the US can give.
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Old 06-04-2004, 07:11 PM   #6
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Well, if you want to know what the good ol' Pope did after the Bush meeting...

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/06/060404bushPope.htm

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Same-sex marriage represents nothing more than "self-centered demands" erroneously depicted as human rights, Pope John Paul II declared Friday, following a meeting with President George W. Bush.

While much of the meeting focused on the Church's opposition to the war in Iraq the two were able agreed on their opposition to gay marriage.

Immediately after the meeting with Bush, the pontiff held a separate audience with visiting U.S. bishops where he told them that the church's position on same-sex unions must be driven home in the face of "erroneous yet pervasive thinking."

"It is your special responsibility for evangelizing culture and promoting Christian values in society and public life," the Pope told the bishops.

This included not only gay marriage but abortion, the aged pope said, slurring his words making him difficult at times to understand.

"Rights are at times reduced to self-centered demands: the growth of prostitution and pornography in the name of adult choice, the acceptance of abortion in the name of women's rights, the approval of same sex unions in the name of homosexual rights," he said.

He urged church leaders to be courageous despite detractors who call the church bigoted.

"Ambiguous moral positions, the distortion of reason by particular interest groups . . . are just some examples of a perspective of life which fails to seek truth itself and then abandons the search for the ultimate goal and meaning of human existence," John Paul said.
The Pope, clearly, could have chosen to told the bishops to put up a fight against the death penalty. However, he has consciously chosen not to; instead, he has chosen to focus on issues that make conservatives gleeful.

I miss the church I once believed in, with blissful ignorance. Knowing what it really is makes me hate it; nothing more than politicians in imperial-fashioned robes who try to assert infallibility and spout mythic speech on issues they know nothing about and don't care to. I take GREAT OFFENSE to being lumped into the same category as prostitution, pornography, and abortion--all three of which are clear behavioral choices. Being gay is not, and the "Catholic" solution is nothing short of loneliness and self-loathing.

F*ck them. The Pope and Dubya can have a great time in hell, as far as I'm concerned.

Melon
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Old 06-04-2004, 07:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
I think it was enough protest that this old man condemned Bushs politics while Bush gives him the highest honor the US can give.
He gave him a token slap on the wrist, while, implicitly, his American bishops try and sway the election towards the Republican Party by all-but threatening excommunication to Catholics who don't vote "pro-life" and "defend marriage." I think the Church should have its tax-exempt status removed for being a political organization. The Christian Coalition does the same thing, but far more overtly, and is classified as a PAC, not a religious organization.

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Old 06-06-2004, 01:07 PM   #8
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The day after the bishop in Colorado Springs came out with a statement threatening to ban pro-choice and/or pro-gay marriage Catholics from receiving the Eucharist, the blogs were full of articles congratulating the bishop for screwing up the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church. I am very strongly opposed to the Church being mixed up in politics to the point of denying communion to Politician X and Voter X. You'd think we were still living in the days when the Emperors and Popes were hurling excommunications and cannon balls at each other over control of the church and state. The clergy should run the church, the politicians should run the state, and that's that. That's why the Founding Fathers separated religion and the state, decreeing that the state should not be in the business of establishing religious practices or beliefs for the nation.
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Old 06-06-2004, 02:32 PM   #9
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Obviously the church is terrified it will lose the majority of its priests and nuns if gay marriage becomes accepted.
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Old 06-06-2004, 02:45 PM   #10
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Well i can understand lots of critics according the pope (and even more critics addressed to mr. bush) but i still think that the critics presented here had nothing to do with the popes reacton to mr. bush these days.

joyfulgirl:
I have no problem with gay mariage but i don't think that everyone who is against gay mariage does it "to please his conservative members" There are quite a few hints in the bible (Leviticus 18,22 and Lev. 20,13) that might lead you to a opinion where you don't want to support gay mariage in your chuch (and this shouldn't have ANY affect to people who don't belong to that church)
But i think it's legitime that a confession (and of course the pope) can have a pro. or con. opinion
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Old 06-06-2004, 07:44 PM   #11
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klaus - you missed the joke. I meant that represssed (or oppressed) gays and lesbians have been hiding behind the clergy (i.e., becoming priests and nuns) for centuries because they couldn't be themselves, so that if the church starts accepting gays a good deal of its clergy will come out and abandon the church. A joke but one with a grain of truth.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:04 AM   #12
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joyfulgirl:
yes, i missed the joke
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:10 AM   #13
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Klaus, a little remark: Berlusconi (that I don't like) is not exactly a fascist.

And second: we have marches in Italy and not always people ended dead!

Rome was stuck during those days just to be sure that nothing wrong happened.
We can be civil people, that's why no serious troubles happened during Bush visit.

The protests were in general against the war and the drammatic situation it has brought all around the world!
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Old 06-08-2004, 10:33 AM   #14
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valentina:
He isn't a fascist but he praised the former italian fascist regime several times and he played down the doings under B.Mussolini.

Quote:
And second: we have marches in Italy and not always people ended dead!

Rome was stuck during those days just to be sure that nothing wrong happened.
I know that Italy isn't china - "just" one demonstrator was shot by the police.

And i have no problem with italian people - i like italy in general.
I just have a problem with the current italian government and i can't understand why Mr. Haider of austria was treated worse than Mr. Berlusconi of italy.
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Old 06-08-2004, 11:15 AM   #15
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Klaus, my Italian niece (she was born and raised in Rome, her mother is a native Italian, she just turned 18!) can't stand Berlisconi. I don't think she went to the demonstration last week, but she went to a demonstration before the Iraq war started. Her mother dropped her off at the demonstration, she would have demonstrated also but she had to work. Then she came to the United States and complained about the government when we asked her about it. They want him out.
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