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Old 02-18-2005, 05:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
Oh, boo hoo hoo. Poor little traders, I guess they should go home to their mommies and daddies.
Wasn't it the greenpeace member boo hoo-ing?
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:35 PM   #17
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Wasn't it the greenpeace member boo hoo-ing?
Well, I admit there's dogma on both sides, I won't attempt to deny that. If they stopped some people from doing their day to day business, that's wrong. The traders were wrong to use violence as well though.
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:38 PM   #18
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Look I hope these Greenpeace people are wrong, I really do. It's just the problem is, we have a problem. By which I mean, the consensus seems to be, global warming is happening, and probably man made fuels are contributing. And that's a worry.

If we have a rise in sea levels of 10m as predicted, then the future is going to be horrible. It could be, in 200 years time, these Greenpeace people could be venerated as heroes.
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:53 PM   #19
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I am not saying that global warming doesn't exist! I am not putting my level of knowledge above anybody else because it is not ~ there are millions of people better informed than I! I read the papers, a few magazines such as New Scientist and Scientific American, I read State of Fear by Michael Crichton and I thought that it raised some good points on the vested interests of parties when it comes to climate change but it does not convince me that there isn't cause to be cautious. From quite a few of the pieces that I have read the point that Kyoto will not solve the problem and that most developed nations will be pulling out in 2012 comes across a bit. The planet is not static, it never has been ~ we must determine what is changing, why it is changing and can we do anything about it. We need to investigate exactly what is going on before taking half hearted and costly measures that don't do squat (such as Kyoto).
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:59 PM   #20
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This violence is wrong no matter who is involved. I fault both parties.
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Old 02-18-2005, 05:59 PM   #21
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Right, so you're pretty much admitting you don't know squat about global warming. And there's nothing wrong with that, you're a physicist so you can't be expected to.

When I want an opinion on something, I go ask the experts in that particular area. If I want an opinion on cosmology, I'll ask a cosmologist. If I want an opinion on evolution, I'll ask a biologist. If I want my hair done, I'll visit a barber.

As I said, my dad was a meteorologist, and he was worried. And that makes me worried too. That's all.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:06 PM   #22
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I am not a physicist I am a student going for a double major in zoology and geology, the issue at stake is not global warming it is these eco-thugs ~ their tactics are those of intimidation, property damage and sometimes violence so regardless of how right what they stand for is their manner and conduct are very wrong and it is good to see that some regular citizens didn't stand around and take that abuse.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:13 PM   #23
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I applaud the traders for taking action against these Greenpeace storm troopers who decided to disrupt a place of business.

I believe fists were an adequate response to the pyschological terror brought about the by the eco-terrorists as well as the potential damage to these innocent traders' eardrums from the whistles and foghorns.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:14 PM   #24
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So please elucidate, what studies have you done on global warming precisely? You seem to be pretty confident, I'm just wondering. I think it's important you elaborate on your reasoning, surely if global warming is real, and is produced by humans, one must allow for the possibility that these protestors are in fact visionaries?

Alternatively, if you have evidence that global warming is false, or even if it is real, is not human produced, then you are undoubtedly correct, however you ought to produce the relevant studies to support your thesis?

I'd just like to hear on what basis you would invite us to condemn these protestors, that's all.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:17 PM   #25
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Well, this is a this and that type of question, isn't it?

Most of the late 60's/early 70's campus protests in the US were EXTREMELY violent, and they most surely did "prevent business from conducting on a day to day level." It was a sordid business for those involved.

But thanks to those disruptions, students now have office hours with htier professors (beofre they were Gods in the Ivory Tower), and most of the progressive laws that cameinot being since then were the result of wanves of soecital violence.

Does this justify it? Tolkine would say no, and I don't.

And before you contrast this with what Bono is doing, let me say this: business and coroporate figures NEVER deal with the ordinary folk. They opened up to Bono in the late 90's becuase of his stellar rep and thet hoped to get some media glamor. Bono used the unique opportunity resented to him by the courting of his sainly rep and media power to "embed" himself in these peoples' backrooms and executive suites. I am sure they wouldn;'t give Edge the time of day, because he has a divorce under his belt and had 2 kids out of wedlock (never mind he;s married the mother now of course.)

There is simply NO WAY for the nameless person to get an audience with these faceless people. Has it ever happned? Has any head of stste come out and sdaid, "Listen, guys, I'd love to know what the protest is aobut. Maybe it would be better if we sat down and talked, that way we could avoid unplesant incident." Thats what they seek--a response. You can'r make peace with brick walls.

I am not justifying violence..however, I can understand frustration.In the past, groups got a respnse, if even a agitated one. Now, the Powers That Be are collectively barricading themselves from us and tightening the slave labor shackles.
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:24 PM   #26
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PS. Gandhi's whole philosophy was built around the disrupting of business. If everybody;'s day is going fine, how can you gewt resukts?
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Old 02-18-2005, 06:50 PM   #27
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Are these the words of a confident man?
Quote:
I am not saying that global warming doesn't exist! I am not putting my level of knowledge above anybody else because it is not ~ there are millions of people better informed than I
I invite you to condemn these protestors because they act in a thuggish manner with malicious intent.

This is not an issue about global warming it is about these thugs breaking into a place of business and being intimidating bastards to people who are just trying to do their job.

Heres a question, are out current levels of CO2 really that high?



This chart shows the ammounts of CO2 in the atmosphere as well as average global tempreture going back 600 million years to the Cambrian. The ammount of CO2 we have today is minute because so much has been locked up in carbon sinks ~ but also consider the average global tempreture was no warmer during the Ordovician period than today but the ammounts of atmospheric CO2 was 12 times as much (4400 ppm compared to 370ppm today). Then you have peaks of CO2 concentrations throughout the early Mesozoic period and then a decline during the cretaceous that extends to the cainozoic. In comparison to other points in the earths history we have very low levels of CO2 (it makes up between 0.2% and 0.3% of our atmosphere). Surely we must be open to the idea that global climate is a very complex issue, there is probably not one cause rather a whole variety of causes and feedback mechanisms that operate under the influence of broader effects like ice ages and solar activity.

This site about global ice ages is interesting and puts forth a different cause for global climate change. It is important to be skeptical about all claims both for and against ~ I find it amusing when skeptic becomes a bad thing when describing scientists who do not agree with the environmentalist movement ~ likewise the overwhelming majority of scientists in the field are not slaves to the enviormentalist movement like some have claimed.

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/ice_ages.html

Another decent article on the politics of global warming here
http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA8CF.htm

A peer reviewed paper analysing the "hockey stick" temperature reconstruction
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/200...GL021750.shtml

that paper has resulted in a defence by Dr. Mann
http://www.realclimate.org/

and another site on the tempreture reconstruction here
http://www.climateaudit.org/

There is a lot of solid debate going on over the matter and it is very political with vested interests behind both sides ~ perhaps the best option is one that is suggested often, having unbiased funding where the researchers don't know where the funding comes from thus avoiding accusations of having such an agenda.
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:03 PM   #28
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To summarise, what is majority opinion on climate change?
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:05 PM   #29
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I think that Professor Richard Lindzen of MIT said that there is a consensus among scientists that:

1. While there are inconsistencies in the temperature data, it is very likely that the world has got a bit warmer over the past 100 years - 0.6 degrees Celsius, on average, give or take 0.2 degrees either way.

2. That carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. The more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, the warmer the world will tend to get.

3. That human activity has led to a significant increase in carbon dioxide levels, from 280 parts per million in the centuries before 1750, to 380 parts per million now.

4. Economic trends will tend to further increase carbon dioxide levels - so it is very plausible that the world will get warmer in the coming decades, all other things being equal.
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:07 PM   #30
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Ok, thanks. So on that basis surely the Greenpeace people are correct?
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