Kuwaitis call for boycott of Danish goods

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oh this is all getting really ridiculous and pretty out of hand. i lay the blame both on the muslims who get so fired up cause of some stupid cartoons and the dickheads that blatantly draw these cartoons to provocate. this whole thing is really stupid doesnt anyone see that? if they really wanna punish denmark boycott itself is enough, attacking the embassy is just overkill.

so much for the responsible global press, too. my dad is a journalist, and what he always told me was that a journalist is responsible for every word he prints, thus should act that way.

you say people dont have a right to be offended, but this doesnt justify offending them on purpose. and there are many cases the law prohibits saying offending people, in many places in the developing world, for instance when it comes to the nazis or the holocaust. so, you should either remove all kinds of prohibitions regarding free speech, or protect everyone's 'right to be offended'. seeing the supposedly just and fair countries applying double standards to human rights, especially one as important as free speech, is disappointing to put it mildly.
 
verte76 said:
These nutjobs carrying signs don't represent the average Muslim.

Honestly, I'm not so sure that is true. What is an "average Muslim"? The majority of Muslims, or just the Muslims you've been in contact with?

For western muslims, your statement may be true. But if there was a poling of all muslims worldwide, I'm curious as to what percentage would actually endorse this reaction.
 
Irvine511 said:


but i can't shake the nagging feeling that there's something amiss in the religion itself (and religion itself, but we went down that road).

first, what is it? then, how to address it?

Can we honestly address it?

I am not sure. Because when people try, there is a violent reaction against it.

If you cannot publish a cartoon of Muhammad, how can you possibly have a rational discussion about what facets of this religion possibly give rise to this type of reaction? Try and somebody out there will be protesting for your beheading. And then you'll get the flip reaction, ie. the usual talking point of "this doesn't represent average Muslims."
 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2025511,00.html

Simon Jenkins, thought provoking as always.


"Despite Britons’ robust attitude to religion, no newspaper would let a cartoonist depict Jesus Christ dropping cluster bombs, or lampoon the Holocaust. Pictures of bodies are not carried if they are likely to be seen by family members. Privacy and dignity are respected, even if such restraint is usually unknown to readers. Over every page hovers a censor, even if he is graced with the title of editor.

To imply that some great issue of censorship is raised by the Danish cartoons is nonsense. They were offensive and inflammatory. The best policy would have been to apologise and shut up. For Danish journalists to demand “Europe-wide solidarity” in the cause of free speech and to deride those who are offended as “fundamentalists . . . who have a problem with the entire western world” comes close to racial provocation. We do not go about punching people in the face to test their commitment to non-violence. To be a European should not involve initiation by religious insult. "
 
On a side note: the thing that shocked me the most is that these cartoons originated in DENMARK.

Stop and think about that. Not Spain or France or Germany or England, all with large and vocal Muslim populations, nor Sweden, which has a recent history of ethnic tensions as its Muslim population has largely been physically confined to gehttos outside the cities (opposite from America where they are caged in--blacks etc that is.) Sweden I could believe, and maybe Norway too.

But Denmark? Even if they had a conservative gov't that right-wing extremeist groups were expoliting from....they don't have a history of offensiveness.

Gentle Demark, which was the only country in Europe that defied Hitler openly and not only took Jews in, but King Christian encouraged his people to stand up to him. When he called for the entire population to wear the yellow armbands that Jews were required to wear, when Nazi troops threatned to invade the place and round them up for deportation, the people obeyed him and did so. The day after the king made a radio address, the entire Christian population went around the streets wearing Star of David armbands. The stormtroopers coudn't tell who was Jewish and who wasn't. Hitler was furious. Thus, hardly any Jews who took refuge in Denmark got sent to camps.

Ironic that 50 yrs later Muslims who flee oppressive govts at home to live better lives are dismissed this way. One can't all beleive that Muslims are an economic strain on Denmark whereas the Jews weren't. It's a small country and a lot of people suffering economic hardships in WWII nonetheless supported Jewish children etc for years in thier own homes without a 2nd thought.

Guess Denmark ain't the same place anymore.
 
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I just have one thing to say to some people in this thread:

If some Arab country ran a cartoon tomorrow, say, that showed Jesus Christ squatting over a chamber pot with his robes hiked up, with a graphic stream of filth falling into the pot, and the filth labeled "Western culture"?

(God forgive me for imagining that. But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic. I happen to have read "Jihad vs McWorld." )

Would you be a bit angry but say, say, "*Sigh*, it's disgusting and regrettable, but hey, we can't call on them to even apologize b/c we want to support democracy in the ME"?

If you were a member of the U.S. evangelical community, would you tolerate that? I doubt it. I have to laugh. Here we were boycotting French companies and products just b/c they didn't like us to invade Iraq. France didn't even do any real good insulting--and they'rre some of the best. You know what I mean by insulting. France had every goddarned right to protest. And by the same token, they should have been entitled to any response they pleased.


Of course I'm not advocating hateful responses. But it seems we choose what is blaspehmous and what is not.
Funny how, in our culture, you can burn a cross but you can't desecrate the McDonalds logo. or any corporate logo. Read up on the history of this.
 
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In overtly political passages from an official biography published yesterday Queen Margrethe makes comments certain to complicate her nation’s relationship with Muslims.

She said: “We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally. It is a challenge we have to take seriously. We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy.

“We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance.”

“And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction.”
link

Also putting criticism of Islam as racism is a falllacy and confuses the issue.
 
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See my comments about her predecessor, King Christian, who sheltered the persecuted Jews of Hitler. I think it's in the other thread...."why aren;t cartoons"..? etc.
Like I said:


Denmark ain't the same place anymore.

And China just floats along above the global fray, insulated or indifferent, growing stronger and richer and more confident each year....
 
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financeguy said:


How are enviromentalists fundamentalist p*****? :huh:
If I push and prod at a dyed in the wool greenies core beliefs (global warming, anti-nuclear, anti-GM) then it provokes the same type of angry response that I would get if I was offending a religious believer. Logic has nothing to do with the positions and taken to their extremes they can be in complete denial of the existence of other points of view as they are all stooges of the oil industry or the chemical industry and their opinions are null.
 
Irvine511 said:
it's interesting ... i still stand by the statement that such signs are not representative of islam and the vast majority of muslims; however, it also seems fair to say that i cannot think of a group that would have an equivalent reaction to something deemed to be of equivalent offense.

we clearly have a problem here. it has much to do with bad governments, dictators propped up by the west, feelings of social exclusion, isolation, a sense of historical humiliation, etc. this we know.

but i can't shake the nagging feeling that there's something amiss in the religion itself (and religion itself, but we went down that road).

first, what is it? then, how to address it?
All your answers

:wink:
 
Darn. Reading further back here and realizing I've made the long intellectual post in the wrong thread AGAIN.

Go to the "Why arent'..Christian cartoons" thread for my long take on this.
 
A_Wanderer said:
If I push and prod at a dyed in the wool greenies core beliefs (global warming, anti-nuclear, anti-GM) then it provokes the same type of angry response that I would get if I was offending a religious believer. Logic has nothing to do with the positions and taken to their extremes they can be in complete denial of the existence of other points of view as they are all stooges of the oil industry or the chemical industry and their opinions are null.


This applies to at least the same extent to the fanatical end of the libertarian free market brigade; those with a dogmatic belief in the free market that at times can even match the Marxists' belief in their credos; the green movement is a much broader church than you are trying to portray it.
 
financeguy said:



This applies to at least the same extent to the fanatical end of the libertarian free market brigade; those with a dogmatic belief in the free market that at times can even match the Marxists' belief in their credos; the green movement is a much broader church than you are trying to portray it.

I think it applies to all fanatics. Which is a big problem with fanatics -- they are illogical.
 
I think as usual it's the Western media going for the extremists b/c they are good copy and fit the sterotype.

War is one thing..we are having problems in Iraq..we know so b/c the troops write home.

But really..HAVEN"T we learned our lesson yet? Terrorists and fringe groups (which I assume these wackos to be) count on massive instant Western media coverage. it is one of their tools. The day these wackos march in the street and not see a single reporter, or the journalists tanding there waving and yawning, is the day when we in the West gain a new weapon in the war. Thankfully our governments can't order that (excpet the US, where Bush has the media eating out of his hand or denied White House access for asking a single critical question.)
 
Ibn Warraq
The great British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote in On Liberty, “Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being ‘pushed to an extreme’; not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case.”

The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom — freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.

Unless, we show some solidarity, unashamed, noisy, public solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won; the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest. Do not apologize.
link
 
Teta040 said:
I just have one thing to say to some people in this thread:

If some Arab country ran a cartoon tomorrow, say, that showed Jesus Christ squatting over a chamber pot with his robes hiked up, with a graphic stream of filth falling into the pot, and the filth labeled "Western culture"?

(God forgive me for imagining that. But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic. I happen to have read "Jihad vs McWorld." )

Would you be a bit angry but say, say, "*Sigh*, it's disgusting and regrettable, but hey, we can't call on them to even apologize b/c we want to support democracy in the ME"?


I understand your point.

But do you really believe that you would see hundreds of people in London marching with signs demanding for beheadings and mass slaughter?

Do you really believe that you'd see a group of say, Catholics or Lutherans storming Washington's embassies and setting them on fire?

I do not believe the reaction would be equivalent. And I base that on a pattern of behaviour.
 
But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic.
So it's not the crazy motherfuckers who get a bit choppy who are the fanatics but the people that mock their beliefs :eyebrow:

If I am a fanatic it is in a belief of liberty, equality and secularism - I hope that every liberal minded person will be principled in opposition to the retrograde and reactionary fascism of religious totalitarianism.

Incidently heres a piece from an ex Hizb-ut Tahir member about the nature of the group and the manner in which "anti-Islamophobia" becomes a usefull tool in masking intent
"The Current Affairs Society? It's just an intellectual platform for discussing Muslim issues."

To student union officials, it all seemed harmless enough: talks on student debt, poverty and drugs. There were no fire-and-brimstone speeches, no condemnation to eternal damnation; merely tempered debate about issues facing Muslim students.

But the society's frequent events were organised by a group committed to reviving an Islamic caliphate and whose views prompted a National Union of Students ban. So it was that at Leeds University I first met members of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The Government's move to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir after the 7/7 terrorist attacks has prompted some to leap to the group's defence. Gareth Crossman of the campaign group Liberty said: "It is not possible to overstate the implications of criminalising non-violent organisations on the basis of their opinions."

Hizb ut-Tahrir is, after all, ostensibly non-violent and committed to open discussion, so can it really be that dangerous? I suggest that it is.

Since 7/7, the party has dexterously manipulated the debate surrounding the mooted ban, presenting it as a question of free speech - a concept that, ironically, it regards as un-Islamic.

Hizb ut-Tahrir is no paper tiger. It is a revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow governments in the Muslim world, establish a caliphate and then wage jihad on other nations. The mobilisation of British Muslims is an integral part of that vision.

I know because for two years I was a member, recruited while studying for a degree in history. With a presence on campuses across the country, Hizb ut-Tahrir is experienced in avoiding detection. Its members were the architects of the national "Stop Islamophobia" student campaign launched last year. They have also organised seemingly innocuous football tournaments and "welcome dinners" for new Muslim students. Recruiting such members of the UK's emerging middle class is particularly important to Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Although the party's primary role in the UK is to articulate the case for Islam as an alternative to capitalism, such work is intrinsically linked to its wider ambitions. Hizb ut-Tahrir is opposed to every regime in the Muslim world and has orchestrated coup attempts in Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Morocco.

Exiled members who have regrouped in the UK have used the freedoms afforded to them here to seek to springboard their recruits and ideas back into the Muslim world. The effects have been felt most acutely in Pakistan, to which scores of British recruits, born and raised here, have returned since the late 1990s to propagate the party's message and incite the army to sedition.

[...]

While Hizb ut-Tahrir continues to mobilise British Muslims in pursuit of its cause, its threat to global security cannot be understated. Silencing the party is, therefore, not simply a debate about free speech or criminalising alternative opinions. It is about protecting ourselves, and our allies, from the excesses of a totalitarian Islamic movement with grand ambitions.

Hizb ut-Tahrir's openly stated ambition of global conquest sits uncomfortably with its newfound obsession with free speech. A party leaflet from 1999 reads: "In the forthcoming days the Muslims will conquer Rome and the dominion of the (nation) of Muhammad will reach the whole world, and the rule of the Muslims will reach as far as the day and night." It's a world in which freedom of speech, of course, would be notably absent.
link

Maybe they aren't "true Muslims" but they believe that they are and that anybody that differs is an infidel or apostate.
 
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Now the real question is the cartoon depicting Mohammed with a lit fuse on his explosive headgear art imitating life or is the Islamic worlds response life imitating art.

How comfortable are these people with their faith if they go crazy at a small slight - affirming their faith through violence, perhaps by getting deep into scripture and pronouncements it gives to much intellectual credit to the man who gives his 20 month old a "I *heart* Al Qaeda" bonnet. In societies and social groups where religious freedom exists robust dicussion can take place and people elect their beliefs or at least have a right to - given a societal change towards religious freedom I wonder how many would abandon their faith outright.

Thank DARPA for the internet because even if media groups self-censor all this can be zapped around the globe and blogs can republish and take a stand at will.
 
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(without reading the other replies)

Give me a break!! What HYPOCRITES!!!

The muslim extremists have absolutely no problem placing the Jewish star of david on graves or have them drip blood, nor do they have problems with caracatures of snakes with stars of david, or depicting Jews as money-grubbing parasites.....we swallow hard and move on.

They also have no problem blowing up innocent women and children, flying planes into buildings, kidnapping innocent civillians and holding them hostage.......supposedly in the name of Muhammed.

They're allowed to hold the entire world by the balls.....But god forbid we should look the wrong way at the prophet Muhammed.......

The newspaper was right in depicting the prophet Muhammed as a terrorist because that is the way most people perceive Muslims as - terrorists and fanatics who commit atrocoties in his name.

I'm sad to say that the reaction in the Arab world to this harmless drawing only serves to purpetuate the myth that all muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists and criminals - which is utterly not true.

I'm totally disgusted...
 
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You know people who don't tow the religious line get offended too. It's no wonder that the Catholic Church attacks the cartoons - they are more or less on the same side (just to an obviously lesser degree).

I get offended by Muslims announcing how everybody is really born a Muslim and just has to be shown the true proscribed path.

I am offended by Sheikh Faiz Mohammed announcing that women who don't cover up deserve to be raped.

I am offended that Islamic bookshops push the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a historical document.

I am offended by Sheik Khalid Yasin (check that crazy fucker out).

I am offended by the declaration that Christians and even Jews may have a right to live but atheists and polytheists deserve death.

I am offended that blocs believers get together to push for bans on stem cell research, abortions and in support of hate speech laws protecting religions (laws supported by Christian, Jewish and Muslim groups - when they are in agreement the rest are fucked - in that case the unobstructed right to free speech).

None of these is a fundamental existential prerogative destroying criticism but for all these things we can recognise that there is no right to not be offended. For believers to once again gratify the notion that they are special by getting the idea that they are entitled to live in an innofensive world is wrong. They can turn around and start fighting those who don't agree with that premise but they will only look stupid and we love the fight.

Perhaps there is a bit of an overarching social theory to this? The American Culture Wars are a mono-cultural microcosm of what is happening on a global level.
 
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This is how crazy they get after a cartoon???

Unbelievable!

Muslims are rapidly losing credibility on the world stage with childish behaviour like this.
 
Danish consulate in Beirut ablaze

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/05/cartoon.protests/index.html

_41296356_beirut_203body.jpg


722303-8ec45b230503aeb484ab8093ef6d.jpg
 
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I am telling you. WW3 is coming( or the last crusade) and it will be the world Versus Islam. Just an opinion people not saying it will happen, but who knows.
 
you don't believe in that Nostradamus shit do you?

:wink:

Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...

1000 people dead in a ferry accident and they're too busy directing their anger at the Danes.
 
VertigoGal said:
you don't believe in that Nostradamus shit do you?

:wink:

Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...


They're certainly not doing themselves a favor.
 
Every photo I see of burning buildings or people marching with guns and signs calling for mass beheadings, I grow more and more sympathetic to Israel, because frankly, to have to live next to these people is a fucking nightmare of epic proportions.
 
VertigoGal said:
Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...

Not to mention that their actions seem to reinforce why that Danish newspaper published that offending cartoon to begin with.

The Middle East is an explosion waiting to happen. However, Western military strength, unrestrained by conscience, could easily consign the entire region and all its people to the annals of history, if such an event happened. Even Israel alone could invade and conquer all its neighbors, if it so wanted.

Melon
 
Apparently the photos of the London demonstration that we were seeing were of a small subset of protesters, supporters of the radical Omar Bakri Muhammad. From the BBC:
The chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".

Mr Asghar Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, most Muslims do not feel that way. I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."

He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence. "We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped. It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."

I will probably be posting some material from this site later when I have more time, but for a different, more nuanced Muslim POV than the ones we've seen spotlighted in this thread so far, check out http://www.altmuslim.com. It is part of the "halalfire" network.
 
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