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Old 02-01-2006, 10:14 PM   #91
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You are infering that you advocate jail for people's free expression
Don't you support Israel, like me?
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:19 PM   #92
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I reiterate that making a cartoon of Jesus ejaculating over Mary while being done over by Joseph would be a depiction of supremely bad taste - but I think that I could safely draw and distribute something like that without having to worry about personal safety.
You are young and idealistic.

Try this in some of the Red States.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:20 PM   #93
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I support the countries right to exist but I hardly support the more stupid (completely subjective set of precepts that I like to see in a country) elements of it's legal system or the pseudo-secularism that allows Greater Israel ideologies to dominate policy.

By the same logic if you don't support anti-free speech judgements in the USA then you don't support it.

Or I don't support Australia because of the racial and religious vilification laws being used in Victoria.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:22 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


You are young and idealistic.

Try this in some of the Red States.
Don't have too many of those in these parts, the best I could do was offend a Catholic enough to walk out of the room by blasting Mother Teresa and JPII.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:27 PM   #95
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I support the countries right to exist but I hardly support the more stupid elements of it's legal system or the pseudo-secularism that allows Greater Israel ideologies to dominate policy.

that is good to know

the greater Israel

is just one way

of wiping one group off the map

while complaining

they want to do it to us.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:37 PM   #96
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Originally posted by deep


You are young and idealistic.

Try this in some of the Red States.
Right..but as that image would be vulgar and offensive in the eyes of a majority Christian state, it would be reasonable to ban such images, wouldn't it?

anyway, while it's everyone's right to boycott blah blah, if you refuse to buy anything made in denmark due to this cartoon you are most likely an idiot. just my opinion.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:38 PM   #97
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And that is quite inconsequential to the topic at hand.

The freedom from censorship is the mark of a free society. Part of tolerance in a society is parties being able to tolerate things that they may find offensive. It is a case of surrendering a liberty (free speech) for security (against Islamic radicals and economic boycotts).

There can be a price for solidarity.
Quote:
France Soir and Germany's Die Welt were among the leading papers to reprint the cartoons, which first appeared in Denmark last September.

The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers.

France Soir originally said it had published the images in full to show "religious dogma" had no place in a secular society.

But late on Wednesday its owner, Raymond Lakah, said he had removed managing editor Jacques Lefranc "as a powerful sign of respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual".

Mr Lakah said: "We express our regrets to the Muslim community and all people who were shocked by the publication."

The president of the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM), Dalil Boubakeur, had described France Soir's publication as an act of "real provocation towards the millions of Muslims living in France".

Other papers stood by their publication. In Berlin, Die Welt argued there was a right to blaspheme in the West, and asked whether Islam was capable of coping with satire.

"The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical," it wrote in an editorial.
link

This is the chance to stand up for that great liberal ideal of free speech, one that has forged the societies we have today and allows an independent press to speak truth to power.

Liberty is under siege at home and abroad, the best course of action is consistent opposition to the threats in line with ideological prejudice - supporting free speech, opposing national ID cards, opposing unchecked domestic surveillance.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:42 PM   #98
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What course of action do you advocate, I agree that they are offensive pieces to believers but that in and of itself is no cause for censorship and I will fall strongly on the side of free speech - where do you stand?
This, I think, is the trump card of your argument (which I naively assumed we'd pushed to a stalemate already ). I share deep's suspicion that strategic provocation with intent to isolate and humiliate is disingenuously masquerading as a noble and pure campaign to protect free speech here. But you are right to point out that one cannot construct reliable legal yardsticks for distinguishing between the two (and punishing the one but not the other) without threatening free speech overall. Still, it rankles with me to see (protected) offensive speech being tauntingly wielded as a civic fitness litmus test in this way.

Is it too wildly unrealistic to wish for a formalized, professional ethic of artistic responsibility on such matters which would not be based on fear of reprisals on the one hand--nor on tacit endorsement of art as social control on the other? With this incident, they have succeeded in alienating large numbers of people who were not up at arms before. And I fear their disingenuous apology has only served to confirm in these peoples' eyes that the offense was indeed strategic--or at best, reflective of unconcern for their collective standing as citizens with dignity.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:56 PM   #99
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As citizens is there not a social contract of some form? To abide by the laws and respect the principles of the nation - an Arab Muslim living in the West is free to practice their religious beliefs but they also must abide by the law, the law protects the right of individual expresssion and outlaws violence against individuals. If we have a situation where some find that their adherence to religious views is incompatible with the nature of the society and it's laws then serious problems arise, ones that cannot be brushed over lightly or ignored.

Freedom of religion respects the right of citizens to practice their faith provided it does not violate the secular law - for instance following Abu Hamza al-Masri's preachings literally would break the law in the UK and would not be free religious expression - it would be murder. Freedom to criticise, mock and abuse religious belief protects everything from The Life of Brian to Piss Christ and the Mohammed Cartoons.

Having genuine freedom of religion and freedom to criticise religion is a critical part of modern secular "Western" societies, to gnaw away at either of those principles for whatever cause will dramatically alter the nature of discourse within the societies.

Incidently the case in Greece where a cartoonist is on trial for depicting Jesus as a dope smoking hippy is in some ways (as in government intervention and trial ) worse and shows that appreciation of these rights are by no means exclusively under threat from one quarter. I am more concerned about how governments choose to react from the pushing tactics than the few people believers can kill (e.g. translators of the Satanic versus all those years ago).
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Old 02-01-2006, 11:08 PM   #100
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A C&F cartoon that illustrates another side of the issue, now it's not idolotry because were not worshipping the image.



link

Now who here thinks that this should be banned or we should entertain the notion?
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:34 AM   #101
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what indra said

and what A_wanderer has been saying
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:13 AM   #102
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:20 AM   #103
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me 2
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Old 02-02-2006, 09:17 AM   #104
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Originally posted by deep
Moslems hold Mohammed sacred.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Do you think we should extend respect and dignity to the followers of other religions as well?
I guess your answer is no. Very disappointing that a principle (we should show respect to that which a religion holds sacred) you press hard in support of one group, is completely disregarded (and mocked) for another.

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Old 02-02-2006, 09:40 AM   #105
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Hah, and who said martyrdom is an Islamic thing?
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