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Old 03-27-2006, 04:56 PM   #406
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Originally posted by all_i_want
i am being awfully free with analogies today, but here's another one: lets say youre at a dinner table, then you stand up and spit on the table. this isnt forbidden, you are free to engage in such activity. yet, does that make it ok to do so? so, now by doing that you have disgusted your guests and ruined the meal. congrads though, youve exercised your freedom to the very end. doing offensive things just because you CAN is not FINE, and doing them in the name of freedom is even more stomach-turning than the act itself.

though, wouldnt it be nice if there was no society? you would be able piss and spit anywhere! oh freedom...
I don't disagree that if people want to engage in a dialogue then they must act with decorum but what you have been saying is that Reliigious beliefs must be put in a special category beyond mockery and possibly criticism. That cannot happen in a free society, there is no double standard on the matter - other religions are open to the same scrutiny.

The best way to react to a blasphemous cartoon or book is to write a letter to the editor or protest peacefully - but the actual response has been burning violence. Hell draw offensive drawing of European ideals, draw the cartoonist in a rude and amusing situation, draw a pro-holocaust cartoon - whatever, they are all valid means of protest.

Fuck peace and tolerance if the price is free speech, if believers all over the world insist on prosecuting their God given right to kill unbelievers then the rest of us deserve our right to mock them and their so-called prophet.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:06 PM   #407
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I'm not defending the violence. But I'm defending the offense taken. We can't apply our standards to Muslim cultures. In this day and age we have a global community, and there are issues that exist now that didn't used to exist because our communities weren't global, they were local. Heck, I've seen old newspapers that only carried local news and didn't even mention who the President of the United States was because that wasn't local news. The standards that those newspapers ran on are obsolete. When we made our rules about freedom of speech, we were dealing with very provincial stuff, but it was OK because we were only dealing with locals. Now we're dealing with the whole world. We need to adjust our way of doing everything to accomodate dealing with a global community. The old standards don't work anymore.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:10 PM   #408
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Im not saying that it doesn't offend Muslims, my point is why should anyone care?

I would hardly care if some iconoclastic Christian took offence at Jesus cartoons. How is the case when it involves Muslims any different (other than the higher probability of a murder plot).

Moderating speech because it can be picked up around the world is a very dangerous slope. People have to have their beliefs challenged, it may just be what wakes them up to reality. Start dolling out special exemptions from offence and let these nuts live in their bubble they may react even more violently when their worldview is threatened.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:18 PM   #409
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There's nothing wrong with having your beliefs challenged. I have mine challenged all the time. I'm a practicing Catholic who has read "The Da Vinci Code". But there are some places I would draw a line. I personally wouldn't want a picture of Mohammed with a bomb on his head in my newspaper. It's offensive to me because I have Muslim friends who would take great offense to having their religion slighted. If someone is offended, so am I.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:20 PM   #410
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Yes because that newspaper would be your property. But what you are talking about is a standard that all people should abide by - that when they want to run MoToons then there has to be a check that it will not offened people on the other side of the world.

What form is this supposed to take?

How would it be enforced?

Would there be punishments if it was violated?
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:28 PM   #411
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I wouldn't want any of this stuff to be mandated by a state. That wouldn't work as we are talking about a whole slew of countries, not just one. And I wouldn't want it mandated in *any* state, including mine. I'm talking about private choice on my part. I choose not to offend Muslims. Like I said, if someone else wants to, I won't stop them. It's a matter of personal responsibility.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:31 PM   #412
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Exactly, private choice - the reason that we do not have to surrender freedoms to live in free societies. Something that a lot of people simply cannot grasp: be it censorship, sexuality, recreational drug use, belief or blasphemy.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:42 PM   #413
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Originally posted by verte76
If someone is offended, so am I.
That is a difficult, if not impossible standard to live by. People can be offended on both sides of the same issue - which leaves you in a position of having to choose one side.
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Old 03-27-2006, 05:46 PM   #414
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Yes. I know from personal experience that I can't hack censorship because I'm an artist. I don't want the state telling me I can't offend the Southern Baptist Convention by doing my Islamic-influenced art. It works both ways.
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Old 03-28-2006, 10:59 AM   #415
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[i]Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Making a film about Christian misogyny is not going to result in the director being sliced to death in the street and forcing those involved into hiding. I really wish it was in some ways because at least then there would be a genuine cause to say that Christianity and Islam are more or less the same in that respect. [/B]
Why would you want to roll these together?
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:17 AM   #416
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^ I think he may have already answered that here.
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Old 03-28-2006, 11:49 AM   #417
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Why would you want to roll these together?
I wouldn't. This is a case of religion bringing some really bad human traits out, and it's happening in both religions. There's something universal about ideological intolerance, unfortunately.
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Old 03-28-2006, 12:07 PM   #418
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But Christians around the world didn't start demanding boycotts of US goods and the artist didn't get a nasty note pinned through his sternum.
Exactly, and why is that?
To quote nbcrusader "As for how follower should interact with society, Jesus never spoke about overturning the established government".

In Islam, religion and the state are one.
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Old 03-28-2006, 02:23 PM   #419
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That is a difficult, if not impossible standard to live by. People can be offended on both sides of the same issue - which leaves you in a position of having to choose one side.
True, and after more thought I realize that this is impractical. I actually do take sides more often than not. I'm a liberal, and I disagree with conservative opinions. I decided not to attend a demonstration in Atlanta protesting Bush's Iraq policy, but only because I decided I needed to save my money for Turkey. Now is not the time for side trips.
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:49 PM   #420
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Why would you want to roll these together?
Quote:
You misconstrue me, every bloody time somebody critiques Islam or specific acts within there are demands to set up direct criticism of Christianity by definition, but in truth in this day and age by magnitutde and nature the violent deeds of believers do not match. It is the height of absurdity, I should have went the other way in saying that it would be better if no belivers ever did anything violent but I find that a lot harder to believe than literalist Christians getting it in their head that violence is sanctioned. It is a bitter statement about what it would take for the equivalence to be genuine not a wish or demand for there to be murder.
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