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Old 02-04-2006, 09:57 PM   #256
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Ibn Warraq
The great British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote in On Liberty, “Strange it is, that men should admit the validity of the arguments for free discussion, but object to their being ‘pushed to an extreme’; not seeing that unless the reasons are good for an extreme case, they are not good for any case.”

The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom — freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.

Unless, we show some solidarity, unashamed, noisy, public solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won; the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest. Do not apologize.
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Old 02-04-2006, 10:35 PM   #257
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I just have one thing to say to some people in this thread:

If some Arab country ran a cartoon tomorrow, say, that showed Jesus Christ squatting over a chamber pot with his robes hiked up, with a graphic stream of filth falling into the pot, and the filth labeled "Western culture"?

(God forgive me for imagining that. But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic. I happen to have read "Jihad vs McWorld." )

Would you be a bit angry but say, say, "*Sigh*, it's disgusting and regrettable, but hey, we can't call on them to even apologize b/c we want to support democracy in the ME"?

I understand your point.

But do you really believe that you would see hundreds of people in London marching with signs demanding for beheadings and mass slaughter?

Do you really believe that you'd see a group of say, Catholics or Lutherans storming Washington's embassies and setting them on fire?

I do not believe the reaction would be equivalent. And I base that on a pattern of behaviour.
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Old 02-04-2006, 11:25 PM   #258
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But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic.
So it's not the crazy motherfuckers who get a bit choppy who are the fanatics but the people that mock their beliefs

If I am a fanatic it is in a belief of liberty, equality and secularism - I hope that every liberal minded person will be principled in opposition to the retrograde and reactionary fascism of religious totalitarianism.

Incidently heres a piece from an ex Hizb-ut Tahir member about the nature of the group and the manner in which "anti-Islamophobia" becomes a usefull tool in masking intent
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"The Current Affairs Society? It's just an intellectual platform for discussing Muslim issues."

To student union officials, it all seemed harmless enough: talks on student debt, poverty and drugs. There were no fire-and-brimstone speeches, no condemnation to eternal damnation; merely tempered debate about issues facing Muslim students.

But the society's frequent events were organised by a group committed to reviving an Islamic caliphate and whose views prompted a National Union of Students ban. So it was that at Leeds University I first met members of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The Government's move to ban Hizb ut-Tahrir after the 7/7 terrorist attacks has prompted some to leap to the group's defence. Gareth Crossman of the campaign group Liberty said: "It is not possible to overstate the implications of criminalising non-violent organisations on the basis of their opinions."

Hizb ut-Tahrir is, after all, ostensibly non-violent and committed to open discussion, so can it really be that dangerous? I suggest that it is.

Since 7/7, the party has dexterously manipulated the debate surrounding the mooted ban, presenting it as a question of free speech - a concept that, ironically, it regards as un-Islamic.

Hizb ut-Tahrir is no paper tiger. It is a revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow governments in the Muslim world, establish a caliphate and then wage jihad on other nations. The mobilisation of British Muslims is an integral part of that vision.

I know because for two years I was a member, recruited while studying for a degree in history. With a presence on campuses across the country, Hizb ut-Tahrir is experienced in avoiding detection. Its members were the architects of the national "Stop Islamophobia" student campaign launched last year. They have also organised seemingly innocuous football tournaments and "welcome dinners" for new Muslim students. Recruiting such members of the UK's emerging middle class is particularly important to Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Although the party's primary role in the UK is to articulate the case for Islam as an alternative to capitalism, such work is intrinsically linked to its wider ambitions. Hizb ut-Tahrir is opposed to every regime in the Muslim world and has orchestrated coup attempts in Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Morocco.

Exiled members who have regrouped in the UK have used the freedoms afforded to them here to seek to springboard their recruits and ideas back into the Muslim world. The effects have been felt most acutely in Pakistan, to which scores of British recruits, born and raised here, have returned since the late 1990s to propagate the party's message and incite the army to sedition.

[...]

While Hizb ut-Tahrir continues to mobilise British Muslims in pursuit of its cause, its threat to global security cannot be understated. Silencing the party is, therefore, not simply a debate about free speech or criminalising alternative opinions. It is about protecting ourselves, and our allies, from the excesses of a totalitarian Islamic movement with grand ambitions.

Hizb ut-Tahrir's openly stated ambition of global conquest sits uncomfortably with its newfound obsession with free speech. A party leaflet from 1999 reads: "In the forthcoming days the Muslims will conquer Rome and the dominion of the (nation) of Muhammad will reach the whole world, and the rule of the Muslims will reach as far as the day and night." It's a world in which freedom of speech, of course, would be notably absent.
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Maybe they aren't "true Muslims" but they believe that they are and that anybody that differs is an infidel or apostate.
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:56 AM   #259
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Now the real question is the cartoon depicting Mohammed with a lit fuse on his explosive headgear art imitating life or is the Islamic worlds response life imitating art.

How comfortable are these people with their faith if they go crazy at a small slight - affirming their faith through violence, perhaps by getting deep into scripture and pronouncements it gives to much intellectual credit to the man who gives his 20 month old a "I *heart* Al Qaeda" bonnet. In societies and social groups where religious freedom exists robust dicussion can take place and people elect their beliefs or at least have a right to - given a societal change towards religious freedom I wonder how many would abandon their faith outright.

Thank DARPA for the internet because even if media groups self-censor all this can be zapped around the globe and blogs can republish and take a stand at will.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:44 AM   #260
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(without reading the other replies)

Give me a break!! What HYPOCRITES!!!

The muslim extremists have absolutely no problem placing the Jewish star of david on graves or have them drip blood, nor do they have problems with caracatures of snakes with stars of david, or depicting Jews as money-grubbing parasites.....we swallow hard and move on.

They also have no problem blowing up innocent women and children, flying planes into buildings, kidnapping innocent civillians and holding them hostage.......supposedly in the name of Muhammed.

They're allowed to hold the entire world by the balls.....But god forbid we should look the wrong way at the prophet Muhammed.......

The newspaper was right in depicting the prophet Muhammed as a terrorist because that is the way most people perceive Muslims as - terrorists and fanatics who commit atrocoties in his name.

I'm sad to say that the reaction in the Arab world to this harmless drawing only serves to purpetuate the myth that all muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists and criminals - which is utterly not true.

I'm totally disgusted...
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:51 AM   #261
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let's just hope these people never see the super best friends epsidoe of south park, which has a cartoon mohammed working side by side with jesus, moses, buddah, krishna, john smith, and, of course, sea man.
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Old 02-05-2006, 10:02 AM   #262
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You know people who don't tow the religious line get offended too. It's no wonder that the Catholic Church attacks the cartoons - they are more or less on the same side (just to an obviously lesser degree).

I get offended by Muslims announcing how everybody is really born a Muslim and just has to be shown the true proscribed path.

I am offended by Sheikh Faiz Mohammed announcing that women who don't cover up deserve to be raped.

I am offended that Islamic bookshops push the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" as a historical document.

I am offended by Sheik Khalid Yasin (check that crazy fucker out).

I am offended by the declaration that Christians and even Jews may have a right to live but atheists and polytheists deserve death.

I am offended that blocs believers get together to push for bans on stem cell research, abortions and in support of hate speech laws protecting religions (laws supported by Christian, Jewish and Muslim groups - when they are in agreement the rest are fucked - in that case the unobstructed right to free speech).

None of these is a fundamental existential prerogative destroying criticism but for all these things we can recognise that there is no right to not be offended. For believers to once again gratify the notion that they are special by getting the idea that they are entitled to live in an innofensive world is wrong. They can turn around and start fighting those who don't agree with that premise but they will only look stupid and we love the fight.

Perhaps there is a bit of an overarching social theory to this? The American Culture Wars are a mono-cultural microcosm of what is happening on a global level.
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Old 02-05-2006, 12:16 PM   #263
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This is how crazy they get after a cartoon???

Unbelievable!

Muslims are rapidly losing credibility on the world stage with childish behaviour like this.
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Old 02-05-2006, 12:22 PM   #264
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Danish consulate in Beirut ablaze

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/as...sts/index.html



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Old 02-05-2006, 12:40 PM   #265
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I am telling you. WW3 is coming( or the last crusade) and it will be the world Versus Islam. Just an opinion people not saying it will happen, but who knows.
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Old 02-05-2006, 12:45 PM   #266
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you don't believe in that Nostradamus shit do you?



Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...

1000 people dead in a ferry accident and they're too busy directing their anger at the Danes.
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Old 02-05-2006, 12:47 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
you don't believe in that Nostradamus shit do you?



Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...

They're certainly not doing themselves a favor.
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Old 02-05-2006, 02:18 PM   #268
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Every photo I see of burning buildings or people marching with guns and signs calling for mass beheadings, I grow more and more sympathetic to Israel, because frankly, to have to live next to these people is a fucking nightmare of epic proportions.
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Old 02-05-2006, 02:48 PM   #269
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
Do these people torching embassies realize they're only reinforcing stereotypes about Muslims? That they seem barbaric and uncivilized...
Not to mention that their actions seem to reinforce why that Danish newspaper published that offending cartoon to begin with.

The Middle East is an explosion waiting to happen. However, Western military strength, unrestrained by conscience, could easily consign the entire region and all its people to the annals of history, if such an event happened. Even Israel alone could invade and conquer all its neighbors, if it so wanted.

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Old 02-05-2006, 07:30 PM   #270
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Apparently the photos of the London demonstration that we were seeing were of a small subset of protesters, supporters of the radical Omar Bakri Muhammad. From the BBC:
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The chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".

Mr Asghar Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, most Muslims do not feel that way. I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."

He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence. "We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped. It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."
I will probably be posting some material from this site later when I have more time, but for a different, more nuanced Muslim POV than the ones we've seen spotlighted in this thread so far, check out http://www.altmuslim.com. It is part of the "halalfire" network.
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