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Old 02-04-2006, 04:30 PM   #241
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oh this is all getting really ridiculous and pretty out of hand. i lay the blame both on the muslims who get so fired up cause of some stupid cartoons and the dickheads that blatantly draw these cartoons to provocate. this whole thing is really stupid doesnt anyone see that? if they really wanna punish denmark boycott itself is enough, attacking the embassy is just overkill.

so much for the responsible global press, too. my dad is a journalist, and what he always told me was that a journalist is responsible for every word he prints, thus should act that way.

you say people dont have a right to be offended, but this doesnt justify offending them on purpose. and there are many cases the law prohibits saying offending people, in many places in the developing world, for instance when it comes to the nazis or the holocaust. so, you should either remove all kinds of prohibitions regarding free speech, or protect everyone's 'right to be offended'. seeing the supposedly just and fair countries applying double standards to human rights, especially one as important as free speech, is disappointing to put it mildly.
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Old 02-04-2006, 04:53 PM   #242
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Originally posted by verte76
These nutjobs carrying signs don't represent the average Muslim.
Honestly, I'm not so sure that is true. What is an "average Muslim"? The majority of Muslims, or just the Muslims you've been in contact with?

For western muslims, your statement may be true. But if there was a poling of all muslims worldwide, I'm curious as to what percentage would actually endorse this reaction.
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Old 02-04-2006, 05:16 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


but i can't shake the nagging feeling that there's something amiss in the religion itself (and religion itself, but we went down that road).

first, what is it? then, how to address it?
Can we honestly address it?

I am not sure. Because when people try, there is a violent reaction against it.

If you cannot publish a cartoon of Muhammad, how can you possibly have a rational discussion about what facets of this religion possibly give rise to this type of reaction? Try and somebody out there will be protesting for your beheading. And then you'll get the flip reaction, ie. the usual talking point of "this doesn't represent average Muslims."
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Old 02-04-2006, 08:58 PM   #244
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...025511,00.html

Simon Jenkins, thought provoking as always.


"Despite Britons’ robust attitude to religion, no newspaper would let a cartoonist depict Jesus Christ dropping cluster bombs, or lampoon the Holocaust. Pictures of bodies are not carried if they are likely to be seen by family members. Privacy and dignity are respected, even if such restraint is usually unknown to readers. Over every page hovers a censor, even if he is graced with the title of editor.

To imply that some great issue of censorship is raised by the Danish cartoons is nonsense. They were offensive and inflammatory. The best policy would have been to apologise and shut up. For Danish journalists to demand “Europe-wide solidarity” in the cause of free speech and to deride those who are offended as “fundamentalists . . . who have a problem with the entire western world” comes close to racial provocation. We do not go about punching people in the face to test their commitment to non-violence. To be a European should not involve initiation by religious insult. "
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:14 PM   #245
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On a side note: the thing that shocked me the most is that these cartoons originated in DENMARK.

Stop and think about that. Not Spain or France or Germany or England, all with large and vocal Muslim populations, nor Sweden, which has a recent history of ethnic tensions as its Muslim population has largely been physically confined to gehttos outside the cities (opposite from America where they are caged in--blacks etc that is.) Sweden I could believe, and maybe Norway too.

But Denmark? Even if they had a conservative gov't that right-wing extremeist groups were expoliting from....they don't have a history of offensiveness.

Gentle Demark, which was the only country in Europe that defied Hitler openly and not only took Jews in, but King Christian encouraged his people to stand up to him. When he called for the entire population to wear the yellow armbands that Jews were required to wear, when Nazi troops threatned to invade the place and round them up for deportation, the people obeyed him and did so. The day after the king made a radio address, the entire Christian population went around the streets wearing Star of David armbands. The stormtroopers coudn't tell who was Jewish and who wasn't. Hitler was furious. Thus, hardly any Jews who took refuge in Denmark got sent to camps.

Ironic that 50 yrs later Muslims who flee oppressive govts at home to live better lives are dismissed this way. One can't all beleive that Muslims are an economic strain on Denmark whereas the Jews weren't. It's a small country and a lot of people suffering economic hardships in WWII nonetheless supported Jewish children etc for years in thier own homes without a 2nd thought.

Guess Denmark ain't the same place anymore.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:30 PM   #246
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I just have one thing to say to some people in this thread:

If some Arab country ran a cartoon tomorrow, say, that showed Jesus Christ squatting over a chamber pot with his robes hiked up, with a graphic stream of filth falling into the pot, and the filth labeled "Western culture"?

(God forgive me for imagining that. But stretch your mind and you could come up with creative ways to blaspheme, if you were a fanatic. I happen to have read "Jihad vs McWorld." )

Would you be a bit angry but say, say, "*Sigh*, it's disgusting and regrettable, but hey, we can't call on them to even apologize b/c we want to support democracy in the ME"?

If you were a member of the U.S. evangelical community, would you tolerate that? I doubt it. I have to laugh. Here we were boycotting French companies and products just b/c they didn't like us to invade Iraq. France didn't even do any real good insulting--and they'rre some of the best. You know what I mean by insulting. France had every goddarned right to protest. And by the same token, they should have been entitled to any response they pleased.


Of course I'm not advocating hateful responses. But it seems we choose what is blaspehmous and what is not.
Funny how, in our culture, you can burn a cross but you can't desecrate the McDonalds logo. or any corporate logo. Read up on the history of this.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:33 PM   #247
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In overtly political passages from an official biography published yesterday Queen Margrethe makes comments certain to complicate her nation’s relationship with Muslims.

She said: “We are being challenged by Islam these years - globally as well as locally. It is a challenge we have to take seriously. We have let this issue float about for too long because we are tolerant and lazy.

“We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance.”

“And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction.”
link

Also putting criticism of Islam as racism is a falllacy and confuses the issue.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:37 PM   #248
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See my comments about her predecessor, King Christian, who sheltered the persecuted Jews of Hitler. I think it's in the other thread...."why aren;t cartoons"..? etc.
Like I said:


Denmark ain't the same place anymore.

And China just floats along above the global fray, insulated or indifferent, growing stronger and richer and more confident each year....
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:39 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


How are enviromentalists fundamentalist p*****?
If I push and prod at a dyed in the wool greenies core beliefs (global warming, anti-nuclear, anti-GM) then it provokes the same type of angry response that I would get if I was offending a religious believer. Logic has nothing to do with the positions and taken to their extremes they can be in complete denial of the existence of other points of view as they are all stooges of the oil industry or the chemical industry and their opinions are null.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:40 PM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it's interesting ... i still stand by the statement that such signs are not representative of islam and the vast majority of muslims; however, it also seems fair to say that i cannot think of a group that would have an equivalent reaction to something deemed to be of equivalent offense.

we clearly have a problem here. it has much to do with bad governments, dictators propped up by the west, feelings of social exclusion, isolation, a sense of historical humiliation, etc. this we know.

but i can't shake the nagging feeling that there's something amiss in the religion itself (and religion itself, but we went down that road).

first, what is it? then, how to address it?
All your answers

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Old 02-04-2006, 09:41 PM   #251
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Darn. Reading further back here and realizing I've made the long intellectual post in the wrong thread AGAIN.

Go to the "Why arent'..Christian cartoons" thread for my long take on this.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:46 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If I push and prod at a dyed in the wool greenies core beliefs (global warming, anti-nuclear, anti-GM) then it provokes the same type of angry response that I would get if I was offending a religious believer. Logic has nothing to do with the positions and taken to their extremes they can be in complete denial of the existence of other points of view as they are all stooges of the oil industry or the chemical industry and their opinions are null.

This applies to at least the same extent to the fanatical end of the libertarian free market brigade; those with a dogmatic belief in the free market that at times can even match the Marxists' belief in their credos; the green movement is a much broader church than you are trying to portray it.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:49 PM   #253
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I am talking about a minority, and incidently I would consider objectivists to be a cult.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:50 PM   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



This applies to at least the same extent to the fanatical end of the libertarian free market brigade; those with a dogmatic belief in the free market that at times can even match the Marxists' belief in their credos; the green movement is a much broader church than you are trying to portray it.
I think it applies to all fanatics. Which is a big problem with fanatics -- they are illogical.
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Old 02-04-2006, 09:51 PM   #255
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I think as usual it's the Western media going for the extremists b/c they are good copy and fit the sterotype.

War is one thing..we are having problems in Iraq..we know so b/c the troops write home.

But really..HAVEN"T we learned our lesson yet? Terrorists and fringe groups (which I assume these wackos to be) count on massive instant Western media coverage. it is one of their tools. The day these wackos march in the street and not see a single reporter, or the journalists tanding there waving and yawning, is the day when we in the West gain a new weapon in the war. Thankfully our governments can't order that (excpet the US, where Bush has the media eating out of his hand or denied White House access for asking a single critical question.)
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