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Old 03-01-2005, 01:35 PM   #46
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honestly, it doesn't. you went into an explanation of how you view God and Christ, and it's loaded with many assumptions that many (including other Christians) do not share.

i guess i want to know why Jesus Christ is required to live a good, moral life. as i understand them, the teachings of Christ are pretty basic -- do unto others, etc. it seems to me as if these are almost innate rules that become very helpful for us to simply survive and not kill each other, and as you say, to help us to live for more than money, sex, and power.

i just don't know why you need Jesus to do this. is a child in Calcutta, who is never exposed to the Christian message, then less worthy in the eyes of God? if a child born in Calcutta and a child born in Nebraska (who had given his life to Christ, as you described) were both to die, and both were to appear before God, would Johnny from Nebraska automatically be considered "better" in the eyes of God than little Amish?

i have few problems with the Jesus message, as i understand it, i do have a problem with the exclusivity to that message as so often claimed, particularly when it strikes me as almost, you know, kind of a bunch of "Duh!" rules. like, treat others as you would have been treated.
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:40 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
honestly, it doesn't. you went into an explanation of how you view God and Christ, and it's loaded with many assumptions that many (including other Christians) do not share.

i guess i want to know why Jesus Christ is required to live a good, moral life. as i understand them, the teachings of Christ are pretty basic -- do unto others, etc. it seems to me as if these are almost innate rules that become very helpful for us to simply survive and not kill each other, and as you say, to help us to live for more than money, sex, and power.

i just don't know why you need Jesus to do this. is a child in Calcutta, who is never exposed to the Christian message, then less worthy in the eyes of God? if a child born in Calcutta and a child born in Nebraska (who had given his life to Christ, as you described) were both to die, and both were to appear before God, would Johnny from Nebraska automatically be considered "better" in the eyes of God than little Amish?

i have few problems with the Jesus message, as i understand it, i do have a problem with the exclusivity to that message as so often claimed, particularly when it strikes me as almost, you know, kind of a bunch of "Duh!" rules. like, treat others as you would have been treated.
.

Angela
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:02 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

as i understand them, the teachings of Christ are pretty basic -- do unto others, etc. it seems to me as if these are almost innate rules that become very helpful for us to simply survive and not kill each other, and as you say, to help us to live for more than money, sex, and power.
Really interesting point. I agree that a lot of what Jesus taught does seem like basic stuff that helps people get along, and as you put it, "not kill each other". The thing that's so interesting to me is this:
although it seems like such an obvious good idea to love others as myself, to live for more than money, sex, and power, etc., I don't do any of those things naturally. My first impulse is usually to serve my self and look to my own best interest. I won't even get into how much of a stretch it is for me to "love my enemies." I think I'm naturally pretty obsessed with money and getting all I can (sex too, for that matter). It's hard for me to give money away (more than a small amount that is "excess") and that's the kind of thing Jesus said you ought to do.

So while the stuff Jesus said was good seems like obvious common sense, I don't find that becoming a person who does those good things is very "common sense".

Does that make sense? meh.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:02 PM   #49
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All I will say is Im proud of the guy and I support him.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:06 PM   #50
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I never said you can't live a good life without Christ. That can happen, but so what. Who's to say it's good and is it good enough? That's what I was getting at.
A child in calcutta who's never heard the Christian message is no less worthy in God's eyes than anyone else, but that child, like the rest of us, will still be held accountable for his/her sins. Yes, she hasn't heard of Christ, but God is fair and just and will judge all of us according to what we have heard and what has been revealed to us. Those of us who have heard of Christ and what he offers will be held accountable for how we respond to it.
And you mentioned Christ's teachings, yes some of them are basic, but why do we have such a hard time keeping them? There's others that aren't so basic too. (and don't forget, the other commandments in the rest of the New Testament are from God as well, inspired by the Holy Spirit.)
What do you mean by exclusivity that the message is so often claimed with? Christ is the only way because of what he did on the cross and because he is God's son. We get to heaven by faith in all of this, not by just following his commands. Also, how was my explanation loaded with assumptions that many, including other Christians, don't share?
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:28 PM   #51
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If this was a group that all of you liked... like, oh i don't know... The Edge leaving U2 to become a Jehova's Wittness... would you all be so accepting?

And you can't answer "Yes because that means The Edge might knock on my door " so don't even think about it.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I never said you can't live a good life without Christ. That can happen, but so what. Who's to say it's good and is it good enough? That's what I was getting at.
A child in calcutta who's never heard the Christian message is no less worthy in God's eyes than anyone else, but that child, like the rest of us, will still be held accountable for his/her sins. Yes, she hasn't heard of Christ, but God is fair and just and will judge all of us according to what we have heard and what has been revealed to us. Those of us who have heard of Christ and what he offers will be held accountable for how we respond to it.
And you mentioned Christ's teachings, yes some of them are basic, but why do we have such a hard time keeping them? There's others that aren't so basic too. (and don't forget, the other commandments in the rest of the New Testament are from God as well, inspired by the Holy Spirit.)
What do you mean by exclusivity that the message is so often claimed with? Christ is the only way because of what he did on the cross and because he is God's son. We get to heaven by faith in all of this, not by just following his commands. Also, how was my explanation loaded with assumptions that many, including other Christians, don't share?
what i meant by exclusivity is that the Jesus rules (for lack of a better term) can be found if you look at most religions.

i suppose my viewpoint is that all the stuff you claim is so important about Christ -- the cross, the pain, the perfection of his life, etc. -- is window dressing to what matters to me.

what matters is that i do unto others as i would have done unto me, and that i acknowledge that the material world of flesh and blood and bone isn't it. that i exist beyond my body, have something eternal within me, and that thing -- you might call it a soul -- is connected to a love and logic sewn into the fabric of everything.

that should be both good and good enough. why wouldn't it be?

what else matters other than that? why do we need to be obsessed with sin, with judgement, with standing before God? these all smell of such human-created scare tactics, and it's tough for me to imagine that God would really care if we break the Sabbath or not. really: why would God care?

what i often find to be the primary motivator in many interpretations of Christianity -- especially the more conservative ones -- is fear. fear of not getting into heaven, as if it's a prize to be won at the end of the school year.
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:41 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
If this was a group that all of you liked... like, oh i don't know... The Edge leaving U2 to become a Jehova's Wittness... would you all be so accepting?

And you can't answer "Yes because that means The Edge might knock on my door " so don't even think about it.

Ha! Now that would be funny as hell!

Good question though...

I'm a huge fan of Steve Kilbey (of The Church), and SK's been painting for the past couple of years as well as doing the music thing. There are some fans who are less than pleased with his interest in the painting, since they fear it will take him away from making music. I'm a fan of both his music and his art (and his poetry too ), and although I'd be sad if he chose one over the other, I'd have to believe that whatever was best for him is what he should do.
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:26 PM   #54
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FYI, Headache, Edge almost DID leave the band to join the Shalom commune permenently. I trust you have not forgotten this? That's what Shalom was, a Bible-studying commune living by the.....um, Dalkey Beach. And Bono did not try to stop him. He and Edge went for a walk on the beach and Bono told him that he would support him whatever he did. What can you say in the face of that? It was their band, their dream.

Now, mind you, both were still in the flush of conversion. I wonder what they would say if someone asked them to re-examine in detail, that legendary Walk On The Beach in the spring of 1981. I'm sure, now, they'd say it was lunacy. Or would they?

Those of you who are not "born again", who have not surrendered your life to God completely, cannot understand just what a watershed thing it is in your life. It is very difficult to explain. It is both a physical and an emotional experience, this business of being washed clean. I understood completely what Bono has said about being "burned by the Fire" in a way so completely that he never be fully free from it, that God is a constantforce and prescense in his life, he can never forget, even if it is a despairing feeling. He is unescapable. Those of you who joke about a U2 show being a "religious experience", yes, it does feel like it, but only as a 40 watt bulb is compared to the sun. I see that this guy is going the full monty (if I can say that in a thread about spiritual experiences! Heh heh) and going right to The Source for his baptism. Bono only got dunked in the Irish Sea. Myself, nothing of the kind. It was a simple kneeling and the laying on of hands.

I would love to be able to describe this, but it would be a bit embarrassing. I don't know why. But I had the full visitiation of the Spirit and all. Meaning I have my own personal brand of "Bongolese" (as Brian Eno calls it.)...

As much as I must resist the urge to find out more about this church to see if it is "tainted" by politics...I really do rejoice for this guy. I didn't say it before but...PRAISE GOD!!!! I stand by what I said yesterday, I hope he goes off alone in Israel for some serious, "retreat"-type prayer. What better place than The Place itself? I really do want to know what happens to him....(and yes, I hope Bono does eventually get on the phone with him..but not now...I hope he remembers 1981 and how you need to be left alone...he needs to savor the beauty and the poignancy and the rapture of this blessed event...he needs to find his own personal rapport with God. The part about members of the media coming forward at the services brought me almost to tears.

Maybe I'll tell the story of my conversion, as it was a long time in coming. I was not an easy "sell", teen that I was. Not that I was cynical, but I just didn't think I was worthy. And in the fallof 1984, God intervened directly in my life via a U2 song. I am fully convinced to this day of this. It was a case of Him literally not making me be able to take another step forward, spinning me in another direction from the way I has meant to go, sending me downstairs, and putting my fingers on the Walkman button. There's a word for this, and it can only be "miracle." I thought I "knew" U2, after being a fan for almost 5 yrs at that point, but I didn't...I have told this story to few people so I wonder if it would bore any of you if I gave you my full testimony. it was a long road from 1981 to 1985, and it was a longer road from that fall day in 1984 to May 10, 1988. But the Light was all the more glorious. I, too, have been "burned by the Fire", and I will never be the same.

Thanks, too, Kitten, for your response. I have never allowed myself to become cynical, but these days, as I see more and more of politics poisoning the spiritual institutions of this country, I can't feel but it is selling out of the soul. I must remember that churches like yours still exist. Does it have a website?
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Old 03-01-2005, 04:38 PM   #55
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Oh: and one more thing: I thought you guys might like to know the date I was "baptized." May 10, 1988. Honestly, I had no idea back then, even though I was a fan, that date was Bono's birthday, and it certainly wasn't planned. God sure had a sense of humor, even if I didn;t, about the osccasion. Though I did admit I considered asking God as part of the prayer I said that I wanted to sing "40" "in tongues" (my home life was prety messed up at that point. The lyric certainly fit. ) . Um..should I have said that? But in the end, I thought this was too serious an occasion for joking around with God, so I stuck to formula. You Christians will know what I mean by this. As for being able to sing in "glossolalic mode"..well, I leave that to Bono, in the recording studio. That's what he does. It started with "October" and he still does it, the band are used to it. Me? I'm too embarassed to try it.

Um..have I said a bit too much on here? Non-born agains will wonder WHAT the I am talking about, and wonder if I've lost my marbles....

"Rock and roll Churches", Mr Head? Wow. Um, Bono does need to get on the phone....he's got serious competition. Has he been to a U2 show? The curious thing is...as he sees more of life. at what point will he want to do the unique thing u2 does....incorporate the spirit of "lament" into his music? Chritian music should reflect the full spectrum of life..it is NOT just praise and worship. THis is why u2 has such a big Christian following and why the religious right is so fascinated with them.

Um, I'll shut up now.
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Old 03-01-2005, 05:38 PM   #56
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He said he wanted to get involved with charity and stuff
so i think it would be great for Head and Bono to team up.
What do you guys think?
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:18 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
what i meant by exclusivity is that the Jesus rules (for lack of a better term) can be found if you look at most religions.

i suppose my viewpoint is that all the stuff you claim is so important about Christ -- the cross, the pain, the perfection of his life, etc. -- is window dressing to what matters to me.

what matters is that i do unto others as i would have done unto me, and that i acknowledge that the material world of flesh and blood and bone isn't it. that i exist beyond my body, have something eternal within me, and that thing -- you might call it a soul -- is connected to a love and logic sewn into the fabric of everything.

that should be both good and good enough. why wouldn't it be?

what else matters other than that? why do we need to be obsessed with sin, with judgement, with standing before God? these all smell of such human-created scare tactics, and it's tough for me to imagine that God would really care if we break the Sabbath or not. really: why would God care?

what i often find to be the primary motivator in many interpretations of Christianity -- especially the more conservative ones -- is fear. fear of not getting into heaven, as if it's a prize to be won at the end of the school year.
The basic message is actually a tough one for me to live by. We're told not to judge others - yet this is something I often forget. We are told to love others - same thing. We're told to be perfect, I'm sure anyone on here knows I'm not, neither is anyone else. Seriously though - do you think I'm "good enough?" Because I don't. No way, dude. Taking all the times when I'm far from perfect - which is all the time if you think about it - makes me realize my own faults, and what I need to do to correct them in the future.

I believe I will be judged one day, and if my good deeds vs. bad deeds is solely the case - which is a theology that doesn't exist within Christianity - I know I'm not looking good. Rather, I believe my faith in God is all I have any merit for. If I've done good things, they will be outweighed by the bad things I've done. I think as far as the Sabbath - I don't know if it was intended on one specific day or not - but the meaning is so that we can rest. I would not be worn out if I had more rest, and I think the consequence of me busting my butt seven days a week will be exhaustion. The next feeling I would have is God telling me "I told you so." I think of the Sabbath day as more of a gift than a regulation.

The last sentence is interesting. We're not supposed to fear where we are going, and sometimes it's our own fault for drilling fear amongst ourselves. Worrying isn't going to add another day to our lives. In fact, I think having fear is sort of an opposite of having faith in a way.

I hope this makes sense, or at least, was interesting for you.
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
If this was a group that all of you liked... like, oh i don't know... The Edge leaving U2 to become a Jehova's Wittness... would you all be so accepting?

And you can't answer "Yes because that means The Edge might knock on my door " so don't even think about it.
That would be interesting, indeed. But personally, while I'd admittedly be bummed that my favorite band's future was altered and everything by his decision, possibly causing them to break up or something like that...in the end, if it's what made him happy, and as long as he's not trying to make everybody around him think the same way he does, and all that stuff...I'd live with it. It's his decision to make, after all, I can't tell him what he should or shouldn't do.

Angela
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Old 03-01-2005, 10:24 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
If this was a group that all of you liked... like, oh i don't know... The Edge leaving U2 to become a Jehova's Wittness... would you all be so accepting?

And you can't answer "Yes because that means The Edge might knock on my door " so don't even think about it.
Well, he's already a Christian, so I don't know. I would think that he should still play music, he's such a gifted guy. I'd certainly be let down as a fan, but if I was in the right mind, I'd respect his decision anyways. By the way, Prince did this.
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:15 AM   #60
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Wow, good discussions all. I don't have time right now to read everything in depth since the last time I posted, but Teta, thanks for your story, and yes, my church has a website, it's churchbeloved.org. You can also see my kids and I on the belovedgarden.org link.
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