Koran + Toilets =

[MadelynIris]

A hornets nest big time....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/15/afghan.protests.reut/index.html

 

[mtoreilly]

It's a shame that tolerance is so widely ignored in our world.

What's more disturbing is that these Islamic clerics believe that the actions of a handful of people, as offensive as these actions may have been, are worth starting a holy war over.

If we went to war evertime an idiot did something stupid, there would be more wars than people on the planet.

Btw, I've always loved the expression Holy War. Something of an oxymoron IMO...

 

[A_Wanderer]

Is there actually conclusive proof that this occured? If not there could be a little lesson in media responsibility especially with stories like this.

 

[mtoreilly]

Media and responsibility? Do those two words belong in a sentance together? I wouldn't let a journalist hear you say that...

That's perhaps slightly unfair, I'm sure not all journalists are like that, before I get some horrible backlash by someone on here who's a journalist.

But yes, absolutely Wanderer. Sadly scaremongering sells...

 

[A_Wanderer]

Seek and you shall find.

Last Friday, a top Pentagon spokesman told us that a review of the probe cited in our story showed that it was never meant to look into charges of Qur’an desecration. The spokesman also said the Pentagon had investigated other desecration charges by detainees and found them “not credible.” Our original source later said he couldn’t be certain about reading of the alleged Qur’an incident in the report we cited, and said it might have been in other investigative documents or drafts. Top administration officials have promised to continue looking into the charges, and so will we. But we regret that we got any part of our story wrong, and extend our sympathies to victims of the violence and to the U.S. soldiers caught in its midst.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7857154/site/newsweek/

 

[BonosSaint]

I believe the Pentagon about as much as I believe the media, which means I don't have a freakin' clue as to what happened. I remain neutral. Somewhere out there is truth. I just don't know who is telling it.

 

[mtoreilly]

I believe the Pentagon about as much as I believe the media

I'd probably agree. I'm not American, I'm British, but from what I have read the US government is about as credible as the British government. Read: liars.

I would also like to point out that I helped weaken the Labour Party's grasp on the country and reduce Mr Blair's majority in the recent general election by contributing to the ousting of the Labour MP for Cardiff Central

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Newsweek magazine said on Sunday it erred in a May 9 report that U.S. interrogators desecrated the Koran at Guantanamo Bay, and apologized to the victims of deadly Muslim protests sparked by the article.

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Editor Mark Whitaker said the magazine inaccurately reported that U.S. military investigators had confirmed that personnel at the detention facility in Cuba had flushed the Muslim holy book down the toilet.

[/Q]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050515/ts_nm/religion_afghan_newsweek_dc

Personally I think this thread should be closed. I think people are too quick to find a way to portray the US in a certain light, and the sheer joy of posting this was too much to hold back.

 

[mtoreilly]

Personally I think this thread should be closed. I think people are too quick to find a way to portray the US in a certain light, and the sheer joy of posting this was too much to hold back.

I don't think that this thread should be closed. I don't see that anything wrong has been said here. People have commented on a story, the facts of which turned out to be wrong.

If anything, it has just reinforced Wanderer's comment that:

there could be a little lesson in media responsibility especially with stories like this

 

[beli]

Am I missing something? How do you place a book on a Muslim toilet? There is a Mosque at my workplace and we have had a few slip and trip safety issues with the washbasins in the adjoining room so I have been inside as part of a safety audit. There is no way to put anything, bar your two feet either side, on a Muslim toilet.

Or were these Western toilets?

 

[nbcrusader]

Personally I think this thread should be closed. I think people are too quick to find a way to portray the US in a certain light, and the sheer joy of posting this was too much to hold back.

The wonderful part about free speech. It does reveal what people think or believe, even with inaccurate or unsubstantiated reports.

 

[deep]

l

they would never stoop to putting a Koran on a toilet.

"If the rules of the Geneva Convention did not apply, what rules did apply?" asks Pelley.

"I don't think anybody knew that," says Saar.

And so, Saar said, some U.S. military intelligence personnel used cruelty, and even bizarre sexual tactics against the prisoners. Saar has written a book, "Inside the Wire," about his experiences at Guantanamo. Penguin Press will release it on Tuesday.

He told 60 Minutes about one interrogation in particular, in which he translated for a female interrogator who was trying to break a high-priority prisoner — a Saudi who had been in flight school in the United States.

"As she stood in front of him, she slowly started to unbutton her Army blouse. She had on underneath the Army blouse a tight brown Army T-shirt, touched her breasts, and said, 'Don't you like these big American breasts?'" says Saar. "She wanted to create a barrier between this detainee and his faith, and if she could somehow sexually entice him, he would feel unclean in an Islamic way, he would not be able to pray and go before his God and gain that strength, so the next day, maybe he would be able to start cooperating, start talking to her."

But the prisoner wasn’t talking, so Saar said the interrogator increased the pressure.

"She started to unbutton her pants and reached and put her hands in her pants and then started to circle around the detainee. And when she had her hands in her pants, apparently she used something to put what appeared to be menstrual blood on her hand, but in fact was ink," says Saar.

"When she circled around the detainee, she pulled out her hand, which was red, and said, 'I'm actually menstruating right now, and I'm touching you. Does that please your God? Does that please Allah?' And then he kind of got pent up and shied away from her, and she then took the ink and wiped it on his face, and said, 'How do you like that?'" Then, the interrogator sent the prisoner back to his cell with a message.

"She said, 'Have fun trying to pray tonight while there's no water in your cell,’ meaning that she was gonna have the water turned off in his cell, so that he then could not go back and become ritually clean. So he then therefore could not pray," says Saar.

interview with eye witness

 

[beli]

Re: l

they would never stoop to putting a Koran on a toilet.

Dunno who that was specifically directed at, if anyone but just to clarify I'm not commenting on whether anyone put any sacred books on the toilet. My comments were purely trying to determine if its possible to but a book on a specific toilet.

(Just in case my post came off the wrong way)

 

[A_Wanderer]

Frankly I think that there is nothing wrong with using culture and religion in interrogations, they are weaknesses that are there to be exploited.

 

[Irvine511]

i think we're missing the deeper issue here.

it's almost incidental as to whether or not the Koran was desecrated. what matters is that our White House sanctioned policies -- like Abu Ghraib -- have made such actions entirely possible in the minds of Muslims (and, indeed, many Americans).

that's the real issue.

 

[nbcrusader]

Does this boil down to "White House policies may offend Muslims"?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Newsweek article

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7857407/site/newsweek/

 

[Irvine511]

no, this boils down to White House gives tacit approval to torture techniques, the more than 30 murders of inmates in US prisons in Iraq, Alberto Gonazales, speaking for the administration, holds that foreign prisoners "enjoy no substantive rights" under the Constitution or the Convention Against Torture. the widespread abuse and torture of detainees is not the actions of some rogue US troops, but it is all directly related to new rules of interrogation implemented by the white house. how do we know this? there were no instances of prisoner abuse in Iraq and Afghanistan and Guantanamo that were discovered in any military facilities that were not geared toward interrogation.

this is the biggest scandal in the US today, and it goes to the White House.

and those who are for the war should be the most enraged, because i can think of nothing that more undermines the stated purpose of the invasion in the first place.

 

[Dreadsox]

The deeper issue is that Newsweek had no business publishing this based on what I have read.

The deeper issue is that the Muslim press is always quick to publish a negative about the US, but I am curious, will there be a correction in their press over the story?

The deeper issue is that so far, people are quick to blame the White House for the MISCONDUCT of soldiers, yet not so quick to acknowledge that the soldiers who ARE being punished for their ILLEGAL actions.

 

[Irvine511]

The deeper issue is that so far, people are quick to blame the White House for the MISCONDUCT of soldiers, yet not so quick to acknowledge that the soldiers who ARE being punished for their ILLEGAL actions.

yes, the soldiers are being made scapegoats when in fact it goes much, much deper. and i don't think that the punishments are commensurate to the crimes that have been committed.

this goes all the way up to Gonzales, and i (as a citizen) demand accountability for crimes perpetrated IN OUR NAME that ultimately feeds into the worst imagined fears of Americans and ultimately makes us all less safe, both on the streets of East Coast cities and our soldiers in the field.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Fl]

I'd probably agree. I'm not American, I'm British, but from what I have read the US government is about as credible as the British government. Read: liars.

I would also like to point out that I helped weaken the Labour Party's grasp on the country and reduce Mr Blair's majority in the recent general election by contributing to the ousting of the Labour MP for Cardiff Central

I think it's shocking that so many people in Britiain are prepared to instantly call Blair a liar over all of this, particularly when so few people were against the whole fiasco in Iraq when it first began. And may I remind you that we are U2 fans - Labour are the ones who have delivered the most on global povery and will almost certainly continue to do so. Just be grateful it's not the bloody Conservatives.

 

[Irvine511]

i sincerely hope that the Media will not have their heads so far up their assess that the story becomes about Newsweek when it should be about interrogation techniques that are tantamount to torture that result in scores of dead prisoners.

however, i'm sure the Right Wing echo chamber -- Drudge to Limbaugh to Hannity to Fox -- will make sure that things like torture are the fault of the "liberal" media. you know, reporting on bad things is the same thing as supporting iraqi insurgents.

this country is so fucking Orwellian these days i'm terrified. drunk on power, we're setting ourselves up for a fall of Shakespearian dimensions.

 

[nbcrusader]

You are arguing two separate issues.

We should not gloss over media irresponsibility on this basis.

It is also Orwellian that we immediately accept whatever Newsweek prints as gospel truth.

 

[mtoreilly]

I think it's shocking that so many people in Britiain are prepared to instantly call Blair a liar over all of this, particularly when so few people were against the whole fiasco in Iraq when it first began. And may I remind you that we are U2 fans - Labour are the ones who have delivered the most on global povery and will almost certainly continue to do so. Just be grateful it's not the bloody Conservatives.

Apart from the fact I didn't actually call Blair a liar, I called the British government liars, he is a liar. It's not a word I use lightly, particularly when talking about such important issues. He did lie about the reasons for Britain joining in the war in Iraq, and he has continued to lie and mislead the British people - and yet they still managed to vote him into power a week and a half ago.

Particularly when so few people were against the whole fiasco when it began? You clearly don't remember the numerous protest marches where thousands of people marched round cities in the UK to show their disapproval for it. I was completely and utterly against it from the outset, as I was with the invasion of Afghanistan. As a citizen of a supposed democracy I have every right to ask the government to be held accountable for their actions.

The fact that I am a U2 fan does not mean I have to buy into everything the band believes politically and socially. In fact, I'm somewhat offended at the suggestion that I should. Don't get me wrong, in general I do agree with many things Bono/the band says, and I am firmly in support of ending poverty in our world. And yes, the Labour government have taken some good first steps towards making that happen. Sadly, that doesn't make them any less rubbish at other things.

I didn't want a Labour government, but I wanted a Conservative government even less. But I knew they'd never get into power because, and all credit to them for managing it, in Michael Howard they managed to find a leader who is even less likeable than Blair.

 

[Irvine511]

You are arguing two separate issues.

We should not gloss over media irresponsibility on this basis.

It is also Orwellian that we immediately accept whatever Newsweek prints as gospel truth.

i see the opposite. no one accepts Newsweek -- or anyone else -- as gospel. it's a news organization, and they report, and they make mistakes. this is nothing new, and Newsweek has retracted.

however, what is going to happen is that the echo chamber, with prompting from the administration, is going to treat this as an "example" of the "liberal" media out to undermine the war in Iraq, when a single magazine has no such ability, nor was that the intention in the first place.

what is Orwellian, to me, is to take a mistake made by Newsweek and then spin it in an Orwellian fashion to create even more "enemies within."

 

[najeena]

According to CNN, Newsweek has only partially retracted it's story, there being some question about the source (Curveball, anyone?). Whatever the truth, the story mirrors the abusive tactics used by the US government on detainees.

 

[nbcrusader]

Of course, we have skipped right over the issue of: "would you hurt someone for placing a book (even a Bible or Quran) on a toilet?"

 

[Irvine511]

^ i don't understand the question.

the people who are hurt -- more like offended -- by the Koran in the toilet aren't US soldiers but detainees, and muslims "everywhere" (not all Muslims, but enough to riot in Afghanistan).

at the end of the day, i think the people who will be most hurt are those already dead in Afghanistan, and the American soldier (or troops from other nations, though they dont' seem to have the same issues with interrogation "techniques" as we do ... with the exception of a few UK soldiers, i think) who is now more at risk as a result of administration-approved interrogation tactics that are not limited to the flushing of the Koran (whether true or not) and include the torturing of over two dozen detainees to death, wrapping one in an Israeli flag, smearing naked detainees with fake menstrual blood, telling one detainee to "Fuck Allah," and ordering detainees to pray to Allah in order to kick them from behind in the head. all this was detailed in a NYT article and comes from eyewitness testimony.

we have a big problem here, and it isn't Newsweek's reporting.

 

[verte76]

I just got back into town from a trip to New York City. My sister had a wedding party over the weekend. I have heard nothing about this because I didn't watch any television or see any newspapers whilie I was there. Apparently the Newsweek story claimed that the soldiers put Korans in toilets? Good grief.

 

[Dreadsox]

this goes all the way up to Gonzales, and i (as a citizen) demand accountability for crimes perpetrated IN OUR NAME that ultimately feeds into the worst imagined fears of Americans and ultimately makes us all less safe, both on the streets of East Coast cities and our soldiers in the field.

None...zero....zip.....

of the Gonzales memos indicate an endorsement of Abu G.