Kerry not really Kerry after all! - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-05-2004, 08:58 PM   #61
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Obviously the name change is on his father's side of the family so if Kerry's MOTHER was not Jewish then it doesn't matter about his Jewish heritage simply because in Judaism you are only considered to be Jewish if your mother was Jewish. It could go far back to your grandma, great grandma, and so on....but if your mother was not Jewish then neither are you no matter how you were raised. I'm not saying that a person can't be raised Jewish or even convert to Judaism. That involves a whole other thread to even get into.

But in terms of Kerry's Jewish heritage he really doesn't have one in the eyes of what I know about Judaism if his mother wasn't Jewish. I'm assuming she was not since his father wasn't raised to be Jewish.
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:53 AM   #62
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Originally posted by Jamila
indra - I have NEVER considered myself to be a citizen of the Vatican and during all my years of being raised as a Catholic I don't EVER remember that being brought up in my church.

Sometimes I think in the passion of getting our points across, we can say things that are WAY OUT OF LINE and actually PREJUDICIAL and does nothing to increase understanding of our ideas.

Let's just make sure that if we're saying things about others - especially about other races, religions, ethnic backgrounds, etc that we can BACK UP our opinions with facts, otherwise we run the risk of appearing biased and hateful, which may not be the case.
Yikes!! I guess I wasn't quite clear in my earlier post. In no way was I trying to imply that statement was true -- quite the opposite actually. I apologise for any hurt, although it was not my intention.

What I wrote was:

Quote:
Umm...you know, being Irish Catholic might help in Massachusetts politically, but it's not helpful in the rest of the country (small pockets notwithstanding). There are still far too many people in this nation that believe that Catholics take their orders from the Vatican. Many of these same people believe Catholics are not even true US citizens, but citizens of Vatican City (since they are supposed to swear allegiance to the church over everything -- at least that is the thought by many).
I've no doubt you didn't hear it at church, Jamila, it's not true. However, it is an rumor that pops up from time to time. And I have actually been told that, quite earnestly, by people who really do believe it. I'll tell you, THAT is a very creepy experience!

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From the time of Our Lord to the present, no accusation has been more persistently made against Catholics than that they cannot be good Catholics and good citizens at the same time. They owe, it is said, a divided allegiance. On the one hand they are bound to obey an infallible pope, who is the sole judge of what comes within his sphere of authority, and who may be a foreigner; and on the other they must satisfy the claims of the State to the loyalty and obedience of its subjects.
The above quote is from this site. The quote just states what has been said, but there is much more refuting the charges (rumors) at the site.

And this site is enough to curl your hair (or straighten it, or make it fall out completely!). I wouldn't even bring it up, but I've actually been given this and similar pamphlets -- and you know, the people giving them to me don't look like raving lunatics. And it's not just Catholics that get the treatment, it's everyone that doesn't buy their particular brand of faith.
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:37 AM   #63
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thanks, indra, for not flying off the handle at my observations. That says a LOT for your willingness to engage in rational discourse.

There will always be sects and fringe groups in every denominations, including the Catholic Church, but we have to careful to generalize that those fringe opinions represent the majority.

Just look at how much the Vatican is out of step with the the U.S. Catholic Church on contraception (different than abortion). From the grassroots Catholics I speak to, most of them approve of contraception to help AVOID the possibilities of abortion down the road, but the Vatican is out of step with its "flock" on this one.

Anyway, thanks for your response - we actually CAN HAVE CIVIL DISCUSSIONS IN THESE FORUMS - if we want to.
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Old 08-06-2004, 08:40 AM   #64
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"we have to be careful not to generalize that those fringe opinions represent the majority"

In my enthusiasm, I didn't post that too clearly.

IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY! DON'T LET IT GET AWAY!
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:30 AM   #65
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That's my experience also Jamila. About 73% of U.S. Catholics approve of birth control. As you point out this prevents abortion. So the Vatican is out of step with us in some ways.
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Old 08-06-2004, 11:21 AM   #66
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It is my understanding that the Vatican sees contraceptives and abortion on the same level.

The biblical support for opposing abortion is fairly clear. The basis for restricting the use of contraceptives is not.
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Old 08-06-2004, 11:32 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The basis for restricting the use of contraceptives is not.
I always thought the vatican sees it's a woman's duty to have as much children as possible (and stay at home while they're at it). Contraceptives obviously 'violates' that. Also, contraceptives make it possible for women to control another important aspect of there own lives, something which I suspect is not on the top of the Vatican's wishlist. The vatican likes women who do what they're told.
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:26 PM   #68
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Every major religion on earth opposes abortion except secular sects of Christianityand Judaism, who probably only revised their views as not of offend more liberal members who might join and give more money Hindu and Islam are very clear it is the taking of a life and people responsible will be punished. But I can't understand how contraceptives are such a bad thing to avoid abortions. It seems self defeating, doesn't it?
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:32 PM   #69
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Originally posted by Jamila
And Moonlit_Angel - thank you for your excellent posts. They are always well thought out and noninflammatory.
You're welcome. And thank you for the kind words .

Angela
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:41 PM   #70
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nbcrusader
I agree with you but of course we have to see these texts in the context of these times.
Our medicine knows more than they knew. So if we have a case where the mother would die i'd give her the choice of abortion.
And of course there are situations in this world where there's no easy black/white. but we have to decide for ourselfes which shade of grey we can live with.
I haven't seen any perfect solution for abortions. Sometimes i wished that Humans didn't invent things faster than their ethics can handle it.
Still i prefer the german solution. Every woman has the right to do an abortion but she has to go an counseling interview before (Most of the time done by a Cleric).
In the end it's her free choice but many women realize that they have other choices than abortion which they didn't realize before.
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Old 08-06-2004, 01:44 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilac
Every major religion on earth opposes abortion except secular sects of Christianityand Judaism, who probably only revised their views as not of offend more liberal members who might join and give more money Hindu and Islam are very clear it is the taking of a life and people responsible will be punished.
Actually, many Muslim scholars believe their religion states abortion should be legal until the third month of pregnancy. It's not as clear-cut as you believe.

Also, what do you define as "secular sects of Christianity?"
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Old 08-06-2004, 05:54 PM   #72
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Another interesting twist to a thread.
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Old 08-06-2004, 06:13 PM   #73
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At least, this discussion is more civil.

Hopefully we're all getting tired of the constant negativity - I know I am.

We can discuss and disagree without resorting to immature behaviors.

But thanks for the observation, BonoVoxSupastar - I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 08-06-2004, 06:44 PM   #74
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How in the hell did a thread about John Kerry's heritage somehow get back to abortion?
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Old 08-06-2004, 09:55 PM   #75
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


1. I've never seen him use it that way.

2. Everyone knows it anyway and always has.

1. What about his upcoming campaign ads with him on his texas ranch. He's always playing up his image as a texan to appeal to the "nascar dad" vote. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this, Texas is him home and he's been there quite a while, just as Kerry is a Catholic New Englander.

2. I don't think that many people do. I think they know that he went to Yale, but not a lot about his family roots. Most of FYM probably knows, but I think people in FYM are more informed when it comes to politics than the average American, it's surprising the number of Americans that couldn't name the vice preisdent.
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