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Old 08-03-2004, 10:28 PM   #76
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While I agree abstinence only is ridiculous and unrealistic, I still think the line should be drawn on supporting or funding anything related to abortion. Olive since when did you switch sides? When I was reading this forum before you were not in favor of abortion either.
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:06 AM   #77
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While I agree abstinence only is ridiculous and unrealistic, I still think the line should be drawn on supporting or funding anything related to abortion. Olive since when did you switch sides? When I was reading this forum before you were not in favor of abortion either.
I'm not in favor of abortion. But I am in favor of a woman having the right to choice. I think they are two separate issues, which I know may be hard to accept. Anyone who is against abortion should try and eliminate the need for abortions and support proper birth control education and use, which I don't see GWB doing. Taking away choice, and therefore safety, resorts women back to having to use coat hangers to perform their own abortions. This isn't the answer.

I also see GWB cut back in health funding and support for women in general, not just with birth control issues. This worries me, too. Women fight enough battles in this world, we don't need extra challenges like having birth control information removed from government websites and so forth. To be honest, when he tried to appoint a very stringent Christian to head a women's health board on the FDA, who believed women need to pray to allievate menstrual cramps, I realized that we cannot have religious beliefs controlling people's health, decisions, and our country.

So while I may hope women do not have to face the choice of having an abortion, I do believe they have the right to make that choice. I also believe men and women should be as informed as scientifically possible about precautions and consequences before and after sex, as well as the alternatives available. The current administration isn't supporting that, and that makes things more dangerous for everyone, teenagers especially.
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Old 08-04-2004, 03:04 PM   #78
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I'm not in favor of abortion. But I am in favor of a woman having the right to choice. I think they are two separate issues,
I don't think so. If you favor ANYONE being allowed to have their child killed, you ARE in favor of it. If a politician says he's personally against it, but still votes in favor of letting someone else do it, then the deaths of the babies are on his hands.

I cannot see a difference between this rationale and saying, if OJ wants to shoot his wife, that's his choice, but I couldn't personally do such a thing and I am personally opposed. Some things are so evil, such as the murder of an unborn child, NO ONE should be allowed to 'choose' it. If you do, why not just repeal all laws and let everyone 'choose' everything for themselves? We can't 'choose' everything, and there are laws that restrict us from 'choosing' certain things, and this should be one of them!

I'm sorry but "CHOOSING" is NOT more important than a life, I can't understand how anyone could think that, I really can't!

Though it is VERY sickening and redundant, the words CHOOSE and CHOICE are ALWAYS used to cover up what abortion really is, because there really is no other argument, and to me, it's not a good enough one to justify killing and stopping a beating heart. Not just me, NOBODY should be allowed to do that, and I certainly don't want my tax dollars going to kill somebody else's child because they 'chose' to do it
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Old 08-04-2004, 03:49 PM   #79
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See, that's the big thing though - that is your opinion. Many other people have a different opinion. To set down a national law banning abortion would be just as divisive and controversial to millions of other people as approving abortion would be to you.

And speaking of no other argument for abortion, I'd just like to add that there is no pure black and white on this issue. What if the mother's health is in jeopardy? And what about those mother's who lack the skill to raise a child - the ones who end up abusing them, abandoning them or even worse, killing them once they're outside the womb? Wouldn't a first trimester abortion be a better option?

Not everyone lives the same kind of life with the same quality as you or I do.

Slightly on, but slightly off-topic - what do you think about the morning after pill?
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:17 PM   #80
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Ho hum, we've been through all that 'mother's health' and 'rape and incest' shit in the last thread about the topic. Also, I think I explained the 'my opinion' thing in my last post here- some things are so bad, they are against the law for EVERYONE, and this should be one of them.That's why I used the 'kill the wife' scenario, to try to illustrate how stupid it is to say, oh, I wouldn't do that but I won't stop somebody else from doing it.' There is no question, KILLING is wrong! You can do whatever else you damn well please, but don't kill anyone, not even your own child. And don't start the 'it's not a baby' shit, if it's not a baby, then dammit, you're not pregnant. It's not only a baby if it's convenient to you, it's always a baby!

There is no need to even discuss this anymore, because most people hate the topic, and the only arguments anyone can possibly use to defend it are 'choice' and that does not justify or rationalize the killing of the baby any more than it would be okay for someone to 'choose' to kill their wife, or husband, if they were an inconvenience. Hey, if it's legal to 'choose' to do away with lives that interfere with my life, and I have a 'right' to choose, why can't we all choose whatever we want? I want to own an uzi. I want to go spraypaint my neighbor's house. See how stupid and empty and ridiculous the 'choice' shit realy is? No, of course you don't, you're only going to come back with 'but it's a woman's choice!' because that's all you can say, because there is no other argument, and the one you have is worthless!

I've said all I'm going to say on this, everyone knows where I stand!
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:20 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Ho hum, we've been through all that 'mother's health' and 'rape and incest' shit in the last thread about the topic. Also, I think I explained the 'my opinion' thing in my last post here- some things are so bad, they are against the law for EVERYONE, and this should be one of them.

I'm so glad you think "rape and incest" are shit, but not good enough reasons for an abortion. Unless you've been in the shoes of someone who has had to go through the horrors of either of those things, I think you have no idea what it's like to be faced with that kind of a decision.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:26 PM   #82
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And I think that's a major problem with your view, BP - it appears you can't see this through anyone's eyes but your own.

Oh, and btw, thanks for keeping the Kerry thread to the Kerry supporters. We do appreciate it.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:26 PM   #83
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Sigh. I don't mean they are shit, I mean dragging that into the abortion debates over and over is old shit. There would never be a law that didn't allow for that, and the health thing.
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:28 PM   #84
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Oh, and btw, thanks for keeping the Kerry thread to the Kerry supporters. We do appreciate it.

Exactly.


I'm going to the Bush thread now to tell them they all want "four more years of hell."
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:29 PM   #85
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Sigh. I don't mean they are shit, I mean dragging that into the abortion debates over and over is old shit. There would never be a law that didn't allow for that, and the health thing.
OK, gotcha.
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:25 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Sigh. I don't mean they are shit, I mean dragging that into the abortion debates over and over is old shit. There would never be a law that didn't allow for that, and the health thing.

Actually Bush has banned late-pregnancy abortions which, "[a]ccording to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists a DX[,] "may be the best or most appropriate abortion procedure in a particular circumstance to save the life or preserve the health of a woman." (ACOG Statement of Policy: Abortion Policy, September 2000.)"

Nebraska filed suit against this ban mainly because "[t]he Nebraska law also outlawed the D&X procedure even if doctors considered that method the best way to protect a woman's health." (emphasis mine.)

Bush isn't interested in the whys or hows or psychology behind these women's choices. Already his abortion bans do not allow caveats for a woman's health and safety! Thank God physicians out there fight this and states (31 since Nebraska) say that it's unconstitutional - and that's mainly because the law is so incredibly dangerous for the pregnant woman's life. Or maybe her life doesn't matter?
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Old 08-05-2004, 12:26 AM   #87
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I know this thread is not about abortion but I want to reply to this.

Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart

I'm sorry but "CHOOSING" is NOT more important than a life, I can't understand how anyone could think that, I really can't!
The argument about commiting murder (i.e. OJ Simpson) is completely different. OJ can walk away from the woman if she is bothering him. She can live on her own, and he can live on the other side of the Earth and choose not to have any financial responsiblity towards her. He doesn't need to house her inside of him for 9 months or deal with the socioeconomic and psychological ramifications of pregnancy or parenthood. He doesn't need to clothe and feed her or find another living situation that will take care of her. But a woman needs to do all those things, and more, for her child. And she should have the right to choose not to. No, I don't think abortion should be used as birth control (i.e. no condoms, pill, etc, only abortion), but with the right awareness it won't have to be.

A woman isn't necessarily choosing something as simple as "life or death." There are so many other factors and people involved, and I think it's important to consider them for women.

Think of the already born children in the family, who won't have any food to eat because the mother is out of work again due to pregnancy, and there soon are medical bills and another mouth to feed. What if a mother is trying to protect the children she already has, to be able to feed and shelter them? Is that wrong? Another child could flush their hopes of an adequate life down the toilet. What's the solution in that situation- not to have sex? Then that has to be told to the drunk husband/boyfriend/neighbor. Tell that to the couple who are in a deeply loving committed relationship who are trying to keep their heads financially above water, and want to have sex as it's an important part of a relationship. Birth control should be taught and accessible, yes, but what if that couple's condom breaks? Why should people's choices be eliminated- not everyone is going willy nilly having rampant sex and abortions as birth control. They make a decision that will stay with them for a long, long time. And sometimes those decisions are for other people's lives, health, safety. Sometimes even for the unborn child's protection.

What do you say to the woman whose news of pregnancy will grant her a beating from someone? To a woman who does not want to raise a child in a violent environment, and is too poor/insecure/mentally or physically unable to leave that environment?

If programs like Planned Parenthood are not funded, then people have nowhere to turn for alternatives. Poor people (probably middle-class, too!) do not have easy access to adoption options without these types of clinics. But they have access to a coathanger, I can tell you that. And if it sounds brutal, that's because it is. It's cutting off a woman's, a man's, a family's options. Options for survival. Options to save the woman's life during pregnancy complications. Options to feed the children they already have. OPTIONS.
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Old 08-05-2004, 06:49 AM   #88
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


I don't think so. If you favor ANYONE being allowed to have their child killed, you ARE in favor of it. If a politician says he's personally against it, but still votes in favor of letting someone else do it, then the deaths of the babies are on his hands.

I cannot see a difference between this rationale and saying, if OJ wants to shoot his wife, that's his choice, but I couldn't personally do such a thing and I am personally opposed. Some things are so evil, such as the murder of an unborn child, NO ONE should be allowed to 'choose' it. If you do, why not just repeal all laws and let everyone 'choose' everything for themselves? We can't 'choose' everything, and there are laws that restrict us from 'choosing' certain things, and this should be one of them!
OJ killing his wife is ILLEGAL according to the law, so there is NO choice. Abortion is LEGAL, and though I am personally against abortion, I agree with OliveU2cm that I cannot tell another that she does not have that choice.

I respect Kerry, I do NOT respect Bush. Though Kerry is not perfect (who is?) I feel that he is better qualified to be President on the grounds that he looks at ALL aspects of a situation, among other things. Unlike Bush, he doesn't try to force his religious beliefs on others around the world. This country is made up of ALL religious beliefs.

There are many things about Bush I do not like and I find unacceptable in a President. I don't have time at this moment to go into my full reasons, but they HAVE been stated quite clearly elsewhere in this thread by others so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:26 AM   #89
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Olive- banning late term abortion is the best thing Bush has done since he's been in office, and it's the one reason I'd like to see him stay in. It's nothing but brutal, hideous murder. A well formed baby is pulled out by the head, they cut its spinal chord, suck out its brain, and crush its skull. You call that a fucking 'choice' if you like, I see murder. The baby CAN feel pain at that age. It's sick! I have to agree with what LLABM said on this once, I can't see that one life is more valuable than the other. If a baby must be violently destroyed to save someone else's life, that doesn't make it right. There has to be a better way.

u2luv, that's what I'm trying to say about LEGAL and ILLEGAL- both are KILLING, yet one is bad and one is a 'choice?" I say, no, they're both killing or they're both choices. A lot of 'choices' have been taken from us by laws, and I believe abortion (with a few exceptions) should be too. The idea of leaving a 'choice' up to a person's individual conscience is ridiculous! Some things are bad, and should be stopped for everybody- among them murder, robbing a store, and abortion.

There really have been some people who believed stealing or hurting someone was not wrong to them in their own personal opinion. So you HAVE to have laws. We also need laws to protect the unborn from those who have no conscience for their lives.
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:13 AM   #90
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The abortion issue is moot. There is a Republican President, and a Republican Congress. Abortions have not slowed down one bit. It is a non-issue because it will take more than the action of the Administration to stop it.
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