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Old 07-29-2004, 04:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Dreadsox,

I'm having a hard time understanding how this was waffling or just not trying to offend his core supporters. Are you saying that if you don't believe in gay marriage, then to prove it you should try and constitutionally ban it? Do you not see the conflict between church and state on this? Kerry has stated he doesn't support gay marriage, but that is a religious belief, and I hope we can agree that religion should not be the prime force behind Constitutional amendments. The minute we erase the line between church and state, we basically spit on the Constitution and every thing it stands for, and large sections of America's people (and not just homosexuals) stand to lose their rights. Amendments have always been added to include people and extend the rights to everyone, not to exclude people from equal rights and protection.

It's not waffling, it's rightfully recognizing where government shouldn't go.

I am not going to get into it, since apparently we cannot discuss what we view as negative about Kerry. There are NUMEROUS examples of him riding the fence.

I cannot tell from your tone if you are lecturing me on an issue I am familiar with and have spoken out about in numerous threads in here.

In my opinion, having lived in the State of Massachusetts for as long as Senator Kerry has been in office, and having worked in the office of a gay Congressman for two years, I am pretty sure about what I mean when I say he is waffling. Again, respectfully others may view it another way.

He is for giving the legal rights up to, but not including marriage. This gives him tremendous flexibility on his position. He can be against gay marriage and for civil rights, without pissing off both sides of the issue.
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:37 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
No, I HAVE read all the posts here. I only commented on the "not Bush" ones because those are the ones I'm concerned with. I have no comment on the others, so I didn't post one, but that doesn't mean I didn't read them. I do not feel I broke my own rules, because the 'not Bush' thing was one of the points of this thread.
Here's what you said...
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I am starting an alternative/equal time thread for the other side. As with the other thread, let only the supporters post here.
and you don't see where you crossed that line?

You still haven't shown me where anyone has said Kerry will stop the world and everything will be OK.

So yes I believe your comments about how you are "scared beyond words if this mentality is going to decide the election", were out of line and lacked any reasoning except that it doesn't match your political leanings.
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:46 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


That is your opinion, and I am not going to bash him in this thread. I read it as being unable to make a tough choice. ANd I have mentioned in here how he and his office responded to many of the soldiers I served with's concerns.

I have made positive comments about him in this thread. I will stick with those. My only point was I see it is as not making a choice so as not to offend his core supporters.
I thought that your comment about him waffling was your opinion too. Does my post have less merit because it's my opinion?


I will try research what happened to the soldiers that you served with and Kerry. I agree that it shouldn't be in this thread - so that's why I suggested to put it somewhere else. I'm sorry I missed past posts to not understand your history.

Lastly, - my opinion again - but I think that Kerry isn't making a choice so as not to offend the swing group, not his core supporters. I think that his stance says that he will opt to be pro choice & pro gay marriage if the legislation is there to deal with.
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:52 PM   #64
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
I don't have to agree wholeheartedly with everything Kerry says. If he supports civil unions, then that's all I can reasonably ask given the current political climate.
While it shouldn't be more that you can reasonably ask - I do believe that the current political climate is why it appears that he his waffling. I think it is best to walk the fine line in between, otherwise he will be labeled as too liberal - which seems to be a dirty word in this country right now.
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Old 07-29-2004, 07:10 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne
otherwise he will be labeled as too liberal - which seems to be a dirty word in this country right now.
Yeah...I'm confused as to when/why that started happening. .

Anywho...yeah, if a person opposes gay marriage personally, but still allows people to go ahead and do it, go ahead and allow for homosexuals to be able to do something relationship-related, I can live with that. I'd much, much rather elect somebody who's willing to let people live their lives the way they see fit, regardless of whether or not they personally agree with those people's ways of living, than I would somebody who's willing to discriminate against people and refuse to let them have the same rights as everybody else.

Angela
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Old 07-30-2004, 12:06 AM   #66
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Yeah...I'm confused as to when/why that started happening. .
The "conservative" label was a dirty word through the 60's and 70's and liberals used the label to maintain the power edge. Reagan changed the direction and gave conservatives the edge in the label game.
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Old 07-30-2004, 01:10 AM   #67
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Old 07-30-2004, 02:30 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Hear what you want to hear, believe what you want to believe.

The twisted way followers overlook Kerrys opposition to gay marriage is amusing.
Yes. Yes indeed. You are so right! I mean, if they were to reallylook at his opposition to this issue, then by golly, they'd all be voting for Bush.

Oh wait, instead of just personally believing it's wrong, Bush believes it's wrong and also wants to constitutionally ban it.

Gee, which one's worse?

---
You know, with all due respect to those bringing up points against Kerry, this thread was started for those who supported Kerry, in the same fashion as the Bush Lovers thread. And in the same fashion in which the Kerry supporters have left the Bush thread alone, it would be nice if the Bush supporters would leave this one alone. Start another thread for debate if you feel it necessary.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:24 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne


I thought that your comment about him waffling was your opinion too. Does my post have less merit because it's my opinion?


I will try research what happened to the soldiers that you served with and Kerry. I agree that it shouldn't be in this thread - so that's why I suggested to put it somewhere else. I'm sorry I missed past posts to not understand your history.

Lastly, - my opinion again - but I think that Kerry isn't making a choice so as not to offend the swing group, not his core supporters. I think that his stance says that he will opt to be pro choice & pro gay marriage if the legislation is there to deal with.
I am puzzled....not surprising....I have not said your opinion does not count. I do not agree with yours.

CLose to three hundred letters to his office. Not one response. Kennedy at least gave us the form letter response, as did the congressman I worked for.

If Kerry came out firmly on the issue he would not be able to say his position is like the president, giving him the ability to court swing voters that he may not be able to court otherwise.

Please notice, not one mention of the issue by name, based on my recollection, last night by the candidate.

He will say only that he is for equal protection under the law for the rights. That is walking up to the line, but not crossing it by granting marriage rights. By doing this, he can be safely viewed as the next best thing to a candidate that would support marriage since Bush would support neither.

If he is able to come out against the wishes of the church in his upbringing on the issue of abortion, how is this different from gay marriage. This to me is an inconsistency.

He is picking his issues and stances for political reasons. He cannot court the center independants and republicans by coming out in favor of gay marriage.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:31 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen



You know, with all due respect to those bringing up points against Kerry, this thread was started for those who supported Kerry, in the same fashion as the Bush Lovers thread. And in the same fashion in which the Kerry supporters have left the Bush thread alone, it would be nice if the Bush supporters would leave this one alone. Start another thread for debate if you feel it necessary.
With all due respect, some of us, have. For someone like myself, who is still undecided, talking through issues is helpful. If I were to vote based on education and for a plan to remove nukelear material from making it into the market for terrorism, I would vote for Kerry. I would also take into account your point, one which I made in the Bush thread I think almost a week ago, that I am not in favor of changing the constitution, a document that in my opinion gives rights to itws citizens, into one in which restricts the rights of its citizens.

But I am not going to base my vote on these few things.
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Old 08-03-2004, 02:05 PM   #71
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


WHERE does this 'funding' come from??! The pockets of hard working Americans paying taxes, millions of whom believe abortion is murder. We do not want our money used to pay for something so very wrong and immoral. That makes me 'sick.' Taking our money and using it to fund something we do not approve of is irresponsible leadership fueled by someone else's belief system!

Something so controversial should NOT be funded by US tax dollars. We owe those foreign clinics nothing, we are doing it to be nice. Why shouldn't the gift of our money be held to certain standards and conditions? I wouldn't want it any other way.

I have to respond to this, because one of the things that upsets me about Bush isn't only how he treats women in other countries, but how he treats women in America. Since you post that we don't have any obligation to support women in other countries, I'll stick with those in the USA. Not only that, but I will expand to include men, who also are being impacted and hurt by Bush's religiously-fueled lawmaking. (I am posting only snippets, but the entire articles referenced are important so if anyone has further interest I would suggest reading them in full. All emphasis below is mine.)

Bush will only support programs and health clinics in the USA where "abstitence only" is preached. He throws a "quarter of a billion dollars to unproven programs that censor discussion of contraception, thereby failing to help young people protect themselves against unintended pregnancies, HIV and STDs[,]" despite the fact that providing responsible sex education is something that "[o]ver 125 national health organizations and the American public strongly support."

"George Bush's proposed 2005 budget cuts funding for veterans' healthcare and public housing....<snip> Yet when it comes to abstinence education, money seems to be no object. Bush's budget recommends $270 million for programs that try to dissuade teenagers from having sex, double the amount spent last year." -Bush's Sex Fantasy

"Much of that money would be given in grants to Christian organizations such as Youth for Christ and to anti-abortion groups operating so-called crisis pregnancy centers, outfits that masquerade as women's health clinics but deliver a strongly anti-abortion message and often medically inaccurate information. <snip> Experts in sex education and AIDS prevention say that in a country where the vast majority of people lose their virginity before their wedding night, these lessons aren't just distorted, they're dangerous. "

Maybe this is why that "Texas has the nationís highest teen birth rate among girls age 15 to 17, and nearly half of all new sexually transmitted disease infections occur among people age 15 to 24." -msn.com

Bush's lack of funding to programs like Planned Parenthood and support of the Christian organizations to teach abstinence is wrong. Not only that, but the majority of parents agree: "seventy-five percent of parents want their children to receive a variety of information on subjects including contraception and condom use, sexually transmitted infection, sexual orientation, safer sex practices, abortion, communications and coping skills, and the emotional aspects of sexual relationships."

Instead, the abstinence-only programs are teaching things such as
Quote:
"There is no way to have premaritial sex without hurting someone." Sex Respect, Student Workbook, p.35"
and factually incorrect information like:
Quote:
"A specific blood test for Chlamydia can detect the presence of the disease." Sex Respect, Student Workbook, p. 44. (Chlamydia is a bacterial infection of the cervix or penis. It cannot be detected through a blood test.)"-No New Money for Abstinence

"The White House is proposing to double federal money devoted to abstinence-only education to $273 million in FY 2005 (Brody, 2004)." I'm sure none of the money will go to fund programs that supply information about sex education to students beyond abstinence.

What he is doing is a crime. Teenagers have the right to the facts, and to be taught about the ways they can protect themselves and their health. I can't morally support this.
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Old 08-03-2004, 05:08 PM   #72
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Thank you for that info. Yeah Bush's appointees have also been pretty scary, he seems to pick them using the same logic.
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:10 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne


otherwise he will be labeled as too liberal - which seems to be a dirty word in this country right now.
I'm proud to call myself a liberal.

Any one with me on this?
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:34 PM   #74
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Absolutely. I'm just as proud to be liberal as a conservative is proud to uphold his or her beliefs. I don't believe that our country was founded so that we should have to toe a line that someone else decided was the right place to stand. Separation of church and state couldn't be more important, and that separation is imperiled now.
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:41 PM   #75
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We need both, that's like saying peanutbutter or jelly would have to be a bad word. It's needed for balance and no one likes an unbalanced sandwich.
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