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Old 02-20-2003, 02:42 PM   #76
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:04 PM   #77
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Re: Re: Please, enough of that already

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Originally posted by Dreadsox


And this means what? That I as a U2 fan should not be upset that the United Nations has turned away from its responsibilities? That I should be happy that they are not enforcing the Terms of the Peace Agreement among other things?


Why has Saddam even entertained the thought of inspections again? DO you think it is because the UN passed another reolution last fall? There is one reason and one reason only....He is afraid he will be removed from power.

Why are there reports today that he is not cooperating any more than when the inspections started last fall? Because he believes the tide has turned in his favor.

If you think, that peacefully, this man, his family, and the Ba'ath party that he belongs to will repond to anything other than the loss of power you are fooling yourselves. His behavior over the past 20 years clearly demonstrate this fact.
I was saying that regarding Diamond's comment on "Bono's open mindedness". I'm curious what he thinks about it - it wasn't aimed against anyone.

I haven't seen any reports how the inspections are going here - but Mr Blix reports to the UN again when they finish right?

Then the UN will take it from there; I read that another resolution is being made by US and Britain to allow use of force AND set a final time for inspectors's work - should Iraq not disarm, a military strike will get approval surely.
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:06 PM   #78
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That would be a hoot.
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:50 PM   #79
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Re: Re: Re: Please, enough of that already

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Originally posted by U2girl



Then the UN will take it from there; I read that another resolution is being made by US and Britain to allow use of force AND set a final time for inspectors's work - should Iraq not disarm, a military strike will get approval surely.
I will believe it when I see it. I am already preparing myself for trying to justify action without the UN. My syance all along has been we must act with the UN. I do not think this president will wait if he does not get the approval.

PEace
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Old 02-20-2003, 03:52 PM   #80
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Re: Re: Where was public opinion 10, 20 years ago!?

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Originally posted by Dreadsox

I love how on these boards everyone says the United States created and allowed Saddam to continue to exist. Your facts, while partially correct, are distorted and not 100% correct. There were other nations that helped in the creation of Saddam. Other nations that had the same fears the UNited States did. Lest you forget France and Germany were major players before Rumsfeld ever took his trip. China, France and Russia, supplied a majority of his military equiptment and might.

France provided the nuclear technology and Germany provided a majority of the biological technology.

Yes, Rummy shook his hand and the United States delivered huge packages of food aid freeing up lots of cash for Iraq to spend it on weapons. We also provided some technology.

Was it the United States that helped creat him, YES. Does the responsibility rest soley on our shoulders? NO at least take the time to look at the history of the past 40 years and not just one photograph.
I am aware that the U.S. is not at all the only one to blame for leaving Saddam in power, and I should have mentioned so in my post. It particularly irks me how France enabled his nuclear program. Shit, everyone knew Saddam didn't need nuclear power, and wasn't going to use it for such - it was only a cover to jumpstart his nuclear weapons program. But the point is, he was useful to everyone then, AND we knew he was a gross abuser of human-rights, YET the world still armed him. I've just got to shake my head in confusion and ask WTF? But now the world takes the moral high-ground? Lest we forget how much we aided Saddam in the 80's to do whatever it took to either win the Iraq-Iran war or at least push a draw.


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Again, you may be partially right. However, your facts are 100% wrong. The Gulf War was not about the removal of Saddam from anywhere other than Kuwait. That said, if he had dies in the attacks during the war I do not think that anyone would have cried, and yes he was a target. However, the UN RESOLUTIONS only authorized the use of force to remove the occupying army from Kuwait. We were part of a coalition and had to respect the coalition.

People are screaming today, work through the UN, work through the UN. Which do you all want. Working through the UN last time left us Saddam. Now they UN does not want to do ANYTHING.

But you blame the US. Take a look at the Security Council. They wrote the resolutions. They brokered the peace. They are in charge of enforcing the resolutions.
Good points. I will blame the U.N. along with the U.S. and others. The whole Iraq world policy has been a clusterfuck from day1. Everybody put their hands in the pot, because everyone had their own agenda - except for a handful of nations and people who recognized that what the world was doing might not be in the best interest for the future of the world. So while American corporations got rich (some of which are tied directly to Bush Sr.) arming and aiding Saddam, now the taxpayers of America a couple of decades later have to foot the bill to mop up this mess. We still think to this day that proxy wars through evil dictatorships are a good answer!


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Excellent part of your post by the way. I like it . I do not agree with it and I find your imperialism comment insuulting but hey, it is a free world.

I guess in your statement above, you think the whole army is going to let us go into Bagdhad untouched? They will just let us go right in and fight the LOYAL soldiers to Saddam? I hope you are right. However there is a problem, the Iraqi's will fight because inside of the units are the al-Amn-Khas (SSO). They are in the miltary units and they are there to execute people who do not follow orders. They are directed by non other than Saddam's Son Quasayy.

But maybe the regular forces won't fight and we can do your Strategic strike. But do I think it is wise to allow an Army to remain ARMED behind us on the chance that they are not going to allow us to go fight the the Murafiqin, the al-Himaya, the al-Amn al-Qasr, and the al-Haras al-Jumhuri al-kas. And any other layer of special security force that this man is surrounded by.

If the world were looking to enforce the UN resolutions then we should have less there. And there would be more troops from other countries supporting us, since EUROPE, RUSSIA, and CHINA helped to create him.

Do you have the breakdown of the troop make up because I think you are missing major details. WE need massive amounts of troops for supplies, medical, and prisoner processing. There have already been Iraqi soldiers escaping and surrendering. Not all of the troops are there in the manner you speak of.

As an American, I am 100% for whatever action it takes to protect American and civilian lives. IF we need this many troops so be it. How many American soldiers died the last time? 150. If that is what it takes to preserve the lives of the people who put themselves on the line for us, so be it. As for using new weapons to disable their infrastructure, IT IS A WAR. Do you fight to lose?

One last thing, on top of removing Saddam and his sons, you will have to do something about the Ba'ath party and the cities that re loyal to Saddam. Yes, not all Iraqi's are looking to be liberated. He has done an excellent job at keeping the cities loyal to him well fed, with great medical supplies, and other nice perks.

PEACE [/B]
Dreadsox, I think you are an intelligent and caring person, and I respect your opinions a lot. I apologize for insulting you. I will try to expound upon my reasoning in a respectful manner.

You're right - we all say work through the U.N.! But there are some serious problems with the U.N. resolutions, and there are some insidious undercurrents going on with respect to the U.N. security council right now. France and Germany in particular are taking the "moral high ground" as they say, but I see more selfish and calculated reasons. Russia, too. The 1997 Cheney report, which supported regime change in Iraq, quoted a senior Iraqi official (defector I believe) as saying that should regime change happen, then current oil contracts can legally be null and voided, and war restitutions can be appropriated through Iraqi oil. Tensions between our longtime allies are tense, and the U.S. is considering pulling all troops out of Germany. Rumseld was quoted as offhandedly dismissing France and Germany as "Old Europe." Well, he is either encredibly stupid or shortsighted. What we are seeing is the rise of the European Union, and the U.S. and U.K. are desperately trying to maintain its standing as the top world powers. In a very real sense, this *is* about U.S./U.K. imperialism - especially economic - and globalism. You see, the U.S. is in for a world of hurt economically right now. Major banking heads, wall-street and investment bank heads are sitting on E68th street right now playing financial collapse games with the Council on Foreign Relations. The general American doesn't have a notion of what is about to happen to us economically. In the last 20-30+ years we've turned from a production-based economy to a consumer-based economy. It's just simply not self-sustaining. We've deliberately exported most of our production jobs through trade-agreements and trading blocks. Child/Slave labor is cheap afterall, and Americans sure do love their NIKEs. The Federal Reserve fiat system is on the verge of collapse. How does this relate to Iraq? Well you see, nations across the world are dumping the Dollar for the Euro like there's no tomorrow. This only makes sense, when you see how Federal Reserve Notes are backed by at best U.S. confidence and at worst absolutely nothing. Euro's are backed by gold, and it was announced recently even more precious metals were on the way. And now OPEC has stated it's going to move to the Euro for the standard oil currency. Read that again. One oil-producing nation has already done this. Iraq. The U.S. is freaking out. We can't simply print Euros. This move to Euros in the world and in the oil sector has some seriously profound implications around the world. It's very likely that the U.S. is going to be knocked down a notch or three on the world-o'-power-meter. Further, many analysists simply don't see the Fed surving a collapse should the U.S. not go to war and try to stablize its economic Dollar. And, should the Fed collapse, guess who (and with what currency) will be there to bail out the U.S.? OPEC and the U.S. have a tenuous relationship, and they have indicated they would back down from a move to the Euro should Iraq change it's position. France and Germany have positioned themselves very well (and selfishly). They have everything to gain, and the U.S./U.K everything to lose.

I sense that if the U.N. and the world was *seriously* interested in removing Saddam without all this complication, it would be done. Instead, we have this wishywashy crap coming out of the U.N. Everybody is playing up their own interests, and it's a sad state of affairs to witness. Regardless, perhaps that is why we are seeing such a huge build-up, because we are NOT receiving the full multilateral cooperation-without-interference from the U.N. and the U.S./U.K. knows it has to do this the hard way. Even if it means possibly destabalizing the region. But, I just don't buy that this is all about removing a threat to the world and solving a huge humanitarian crisis. Let's not forget about Israel - and their agenda. There's more going on in the undercurrent of the world stage, and I think we're seing that reflected.

I am not against the use of new weapons. We have new weapons that are so fantastic, they're scary. But a selective use of electromagnetic weaponry combined with precision warheads is MUCH better than a shock-and-awe strategy. You're right though, there is a lot to consider, with the Baath party etc ...

I am scared, though. A lot of people are. We can see the potential complications and problems arise out of this. I fear nation building gone terribly wrong. I look at Afghanistan and my heart sinks. I fear we will install a puppet dictatorship, our own military leaders, or god forbid a democracy. I wish upon hope that we could just all come together as a world for the sole purpose of ridding Saddam and leave all of our self-serving special agendas behind.
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Old 02-20-2003, 04:32 PM   #81
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Re: Re: Re: Where was public opinion 10, 20 years ago!?

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Originally posted by elfyx

Dreadsox, I think you are an intelligent and caring person, and I respect your opinions a lot. I apologize for insulting you. I will try to expound upon my reasoning in a respectful manner.
I am a cranky bastard (Archie Bunker would be a good comparison) who woke up with a migrane. You did not insult me at all. Please do not feel that you did.

I do not have the mental stregnth right now to respond to your post above. It is an excellent read and full of super thoughts. It is definitely deserving of an intelleigent response, which I am not really capable of right now.

I have fears too!

I am not happy with Rumsfeld's comments.
I am not happy with the "you are with us or against us" comments.

They do not make many friends.

I am also concerned with the fact that people seem to have forgotten the COLD WAR. That much, unfortunately too much, of the western foreign policy was based on this fact. RIght now we have many messes due to it aside from Saddam.

The world is still adjusting to the end of the Cold War. Unfortunatley, not very well.


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Old 02-20-2003, 05:16 PM   #82
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elfyx,

The USA is not the only country hurting economically right now. The rate of unemployment in Germany is double the rate here in the USA. In France its 50% higher. France is acting tough at the UN because thats about all they have left as far as their real power in the world. Looking at the European Union, half of it is strongly behind the USA. The Euro dollar may be doing well at the moment, but for most of its short history, it has been rather weak. I've made out well with the exchange rate, when traveling in Europe. The European Union has a very tough road ahead with the incorperation of comparitively weaker East European economies going ahead.

Despite the USA's current muddled economy, it is rather healthy compared to some of its friends. The USA is still far and away the largest economy on the planet, approaching 11 trillion in goods and services per year. If your involved in international business in another country, the USA is your #1 market by far typically.

Lets not forget that when it comes to economics, the USA and Europe are very interdependent. An Economic slump in either Europe or the USA hurts both regions. Although I will say that an Economic slump in the USA hurts Europe more, than an Economic slump in Europe hurts the USA. Also, while the Euro is stronger now than the dollar, it makes US exports cheaper to European consumers, there by making US products sold in Europe more competitive than European products. Of course, the rise in the Euro makes my next trip to Europe more expensive. The large tourist industry in Europe does not want to see the Euro get higher because it obviously hurts their business which benefits from a lot from foreigner's coming to Europe.

As a World Power, the European Union is not even close. It was essentially the USA that solved Europes problems with the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s. While things are still difficult in Afghanistan, they have gotten a lot better. I have a friend that was stationed there for 6 months that got back in November and he said the biggest problem the government has is the currency. Its going to take decades to build a strong nation in AFghanistan that evolves from its thousand year old tradition of warlordism. People should not be expecting overnight results.
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:19 PM   #83
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Re: Re: Re: Please, enough of that already

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Originally posted by U2girl


I was saying that regarding Diamond's comment on "Bono's open mindedness". I'm curious what he thinks about it
I think Diamond stated earlier in this or another thread that if Bono opposed the war he'd give him a call on their direct line.




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Old 02-21-2003, 12:02 AM   #84
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1. What constitutes an 'anti-semitic' placard? "Israel out of Palestine?" "Give us our homes and cities back"? "Stop the Israeli state sanctioned murder and pillaging in our communities"?
Two of the questions that I recall said "Get Jews Out Of The Holy Land" and "Clinton's Jewish War," both of which I found strange since the targets at the time were Iraq, Afghanistan and Sudan. It had nothing to do with Israel. In fact, Clinton got Yasser Arafat and Benjamin Netanyahu to play each other in a game of basketball. I guess since Israel agreed with him on these attacks, and since he had a Jewish Secretary of Stae (Madeline Albright), it was a Jewish war and worthy of such placards. Why should people of any faith be banned from a region anyway?



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2. The bottom line is that you drew a parallel in racist gatherings, and none was appropriate. You are stretching in using the example, because it is clearly not what the majority of protesters where there for. They weren't there to persecute Jews. They weren't there to burn crosses. They weren't there to preach Communism, Marxism, Fascism or Me-ism. They were there rallying for peace.
Okay, I used an opposite EXTREME when it comes to demonstrations, but I disagree that it was inappropriate. I was, however using an example. You will never agree with me on this analogy, and I will never agree with you on it. I simply do not think that they were only rallying for peace at teh San Franciso demonstration. I am not going to get into one of these "appropriate" debates over it.

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Old 02-21-2003, 12:18 AM   #85
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I simply do not think that they were only rallying for peace at teh San Franciso demonstration. ~U2Alabama
Bama I appreciate you reading that last post in the spirit of genuine discussion that it was intended.

I am curious tho, and I would just like you to simplify your opinion with regards to the above statement then: what do you think the other motives were for the SF demonstration, by the people who organized them and the majority who participated, if not only for peace?
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Old 02-21-2003, 12:30 AM   #86
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Once again, I do think that the majority of people there were there to support peace and oppose war. However, considering some of the groups that were involved, I would suspect that some of the demonstrators were there to distribute literature that encourages communism, anarchy, and yes, even anti-semitism. Personally, I find all of these causes to be dangerous and hazardous to human rights. Some people might not, but I do. If absolutely no one oraganization there that advanced these causes, then I stand corrected, and I apologize.

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Old 02-21-2003, 12:41 AM   #87
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Ok this is becoming clearer, and I will grant you:

Anarchy - BAD
Anti-Semitism - BAD
Communism - BAD (I guess, I mean I've never experiecned it)

But what I'm unclear on is what evidence you have that this rally was organized by members of these types of elements or that they were represented in any sort of meaningful way by a significant number of protesters?

Were you there? Can you name any of the organizations involved and provide some background on them?

Before you answer please recall that I did use what I consider a more appropriate analogy, which you sort of ignored, about how in any large group setting, including a U2 concert, certain very small (in direct proportion to the total number of people involved) people with views and ideals on the fringes of social acceptability may choose to use such an event to propagate their take on things - and with all that in consideration, I ask you:

Does that make the aims of the general body of protesters READ: PEACE any less noble or to be doubted?
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Old 02-21-2003, 12:54 AM   #88
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My favorite part of that "Peace" rally was the Palestinian holding his flag high on the plaza, happy to hear the calls to Pres. Bush, telling him forthrightly that the "People" and the Unions are NOT WITH YOU!! and leaving my own impoverished self with a proud but not too wide smile...well, this did brighten my day!

Later, i talked to many people on the square, had a delicious Eastern meal and picked up a few political buttons...then headed back to the Ramada for a draught of Miller and Fried Cheese sticks...if this is not written in the correct order, perhaps others who WERE there from the beginning of the dignitary speeches can correct me... really, a beautiful protest for workers rights, international activists, and the occasional anti-dictator...
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Old 02-21-2003, 01:08 AM   #89
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Cmon Debbie, no need to be ultra-sarcastic...or maybe Im too tired to understand exactly what it is your saying.

If you or anyone else was there, I'd love to hear more, really.

The only thing I've heard so far is that it was a peace rally. I hold that type of ideal in high esteem so Im pitching it.

But I wouldnt want to see it hijacked by people with ulterior motives than anyone else who would truly march for peace.
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Old 02-21-2003, 01:09 AM   #90
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I'd agree Debbie that the protests (or at least those in L.A.) to a degree are being co-opted or "piggy-backed" by groups connected with various "liberal" causes, but I still think it's impressive that so many millions around the world are giving a resounding "no" to the idea of a U.S. led war with Iraq.

And besides, it may be true that these seemingly peripheral issues are inextricably linked to the call for peace. It depends on one's experience in life, one's lot in life.
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