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Old 02-20-2003, 01:17 AM   #46
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1. I do not think I am stretching the example, wtihout looking at a list of organizations that organized and participate in the event. I am not going to seek such information from www.rushlimbaugh.com, either. However, several years ago, when the Clinton administration ordered bombing operations in Iraq, a few members of a Middle Eastern-American interest group held a street corner protest demonstration at the Federal Courthouse near my office downtown. Along with their "anti-bombing" signs, they were also waving signs with anti-semitic messages. This is why I drew that "for example" into it. I can start postin letters to the editor from the BIRMINGHAM NEWS, written and submitted by the president of the Birmingham Jewish Federation, on the offense he and his fellow Jewish citizens have taken at some of the anti-war and anti-U.S./Israeli policy sentiment that has been expressed in our community and in the national and international community.

2. I told you what I think of the majority of the protestors, and I felt that I was being quite generous. Without picking apart the idealogies of all of the groups involved and my disagreements with them, I will leave it at that.

3. I have been offended by some of the anti-war placards waved at U.S. and international demonstrations, regardless of whom they are aimed at; yet I do not wish to supress anyone's right to wave such cards, whether it is at an anti-war demonstration ot a ticker tape parade for U.S. soldiers on their homecoming.

Tell me this: why aren't any of the protestors addressing the current human rights abuses in Iraq if humanitarian causes are truly their concern? Is it the same attitude of Jesse Jackson, who refuses to campaign against institutional slavery in Sudan because it would be perceived as "anti-Arab" for him to speak against it? I am not trying to put the burden and liability of any of these proterstors on your shoulder, I am just wanting to hear an explanation from any of you.

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Old 02-20-2003, 01:26 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox


If the US really wanted Saddam out, they could figure out a way of taking him out without launching a full scale invasion of a country that will kill hundreds of thousands, and then with him gone his military would likely collapse.
Ideally, I agree with this, and who knows, it may yet happen. But even if it does, the U.S. will be accused of employing "death squads" or backing a coup or dictatorship (as opposed to what is in place now) and 10 or 20 years from now, one of the local foot soldiers who we used will get a DUI or head up an anti-Western terrorist organization ('blowback") and the U.S. will be blamed for the way we handled it. I am reminded of some photos I once posted of Saddam brandishing his collection of double-edged swords. I feel like we are currently faced with one of those swords, no matter what we do.

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Old 02-20-2003, 01:39 AM   #48
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1. What constitutes an 'anti-semitic' placard? "Israel out of Palestine?" "Give us our homes and cities back"? "Stop the Israeli state sanctioned murder and pillaging in our communities"? Well I for one happen to believe that much of what Israel has done and does in that region is rooted in racism and/or religious intolerance. There is also the element of self defense now that radicals have made it their point to strike back at civilians, also clearly wrong.

2. The bottom line is that you drew a parallel in racist gatherings, and none was appropriate. You are stretching in using the example, because it is clearly not what the majority of protesters where there for. They weren't there to persecute Jews. They weren't there to burn crosses. They weren't there to preach Communism, Marxism, Fascism or Me-ism. They were there rallying for peace.
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Old 02-20-2003, 01:40 AM   #49
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Obviously no one can speak for all the people attending the rallies, but I'd assume focusing on the human rights aspect supports indirectly, the war movement in itself. People who are in support are hoping this war does exactly that, and assist in bringing down the man responsible for all the suffering of the people of Iraq.
I'd also assume the irony isn't missed by them...so I dont really know.
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Old 02-20-2003, 02:04 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Obviously no one can speak for all the people attending the rallies, but I'd assume focusing on the human rights aspect supports indirectly, the war movement in itself. People who are in support are hoping this war does exactly that, and assist in bringing down the man responsible for all the suffering of the people of Iraq.
I'd also assume the irony isn't missed by them...so I dont really know.
Good point.

I think the situation has been greatly exacerbated though, by Bush's incomprehensible "your either with us OR against us" rhetoric. You either support war, or you:

1. "will all have blood on your hands." -blaire

2. enable, support, or give comfort to Saddam (and should be convicted of High Treason according to the NY Sun)

3. are with the terrorists

4. are anti-humanitarian

It's just insulting to most, and embarrasing to the administration.
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Old 02-20-2003, 02:35 AM   #51
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I'll try to answer

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama


3. I have been offended by some of the anti-war placards waved at U.S. and international demonstrations, regardless of whom they are aimed at; yet I do not wish to supress anyone's right to wave such cards, whether it is at an anti-war demonstration ot a ticker tape parade for U.S. soldiers on their homecoming.
Even though I am pro-peace, I too was offended at some of the placards. Especially the ones aimed at our troops! Our troops should be held in the highest respect; they are out there protecting our freedom. It's our leaders that should be targeted, not our soldiers!

Quote:
Tell me this: why aren't any of the protestors addressing the current human rights abuses in Iraq if humanitarian causes are truly their concern? Is it the same attitude of Jesse Jackson, who refuses to campaign against institutional slavery in Sudan because it would be perceived as "anti-Arab" for him to speak against it? I am not trying to put the burden and liability of any of these proterstors on your shoulder, I am just wanting to hear an explanation from any of you.
This bothers me too. Of course it's impossible to speak for everybody, but I do think that most everyone agrees that Saddam's human-rights abuses are intolerable. It's exacerbated by Bush's "you are either with us OR against us" rhetoric. There's no middle ground, or alternative solution with that kind of propaganda. The focus of the peace-marches was anti-war; the Bush administration wants us to think solving the threat to the world or human rights violations isn't possible without it. I think that's mainly why we weren't seeing a combination of the anti-war/anti-hr-violations themes. However, I do have to agree that some anti-war protesters probably couldn't care less about the human-rights issue. And I even question the Bush administration on this point. If it were really that much of a concern to everybody, in so much as it actually took time and effort out of our daily lives to address, then where has this concern been the last 20 years??? I see it on both sides of the issue: many in the pro-war group have suddenly "realized" this is a problem and have clung to it like some kind of moral salvation. Others in the peace group pretend its just not a concern at all, because they've bought into Bush's rhetoric. I know that there has been organized campaigns by A.I., amongst others, against Saddam's HR violations, but for the most part - I really do think that most people the last 20 years really haven't given a damn. It just doesn't "affect" them. Sure, it'd be nice to see peace and justice in the world, but hey they can't be bothered enough to become politically active on the issue: that's what our fearless leaders' are supposed to do! Sheesh. Perhaps that's a cynical viewpoint, but I just don't see the evidence to deny it. If only more people were like Bono, u2 fans, and other activist folks, the world would be a very different place.
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Old 02-20-2003, 06:51 AM   #52
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Diamond is right !!

Calling those two guys moron is unwarranted no matter how much free a country you live in. Everyone has his views and you cant go on calling everyone who doesnot agree with you as "morons"

I really envy Saddam Hussian - he has got so much of world support. I am beginning to think he is getting more & more popular. Not in Iraq but in USA.

Saddam must go with or without any UN resolutions, with or without war.

The ideal thing would be people in Iraq somehow managing to get rid of him and install a democratic government there..but then nothing is ideal !

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Old 02-20-2003, 07:11 AM   #53
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Re: I'll try to answer

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx


. If only more people were like Bono, u2 fans, and other activist folks, the world would be a very different place.

but , see they're not my friend.

after viewing the taught hatred of almost anything USA/or WesternCulture by the main body of protesters..
this is a tough sell.
You see the protesters turn a blind eye to all of the good America has done thru out the world.
It seems they are preoccupied w/one thing-hatred towards America, no Bono openmindedness there.


Also-
The UN, USA and Allies have -
pleaded
begged
implored
cajoled
demanded
requested
petitioned
encouraged
for Saddam to disarm, WITH PLENTY OF TIME.

It will be upon Saddam's hands if the blood of his people is spilt.

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Old 02-20-2003, 08:50 AM   #54
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Quote:
after viewing the taught hatred of almost anything USA/or WesternCulture by the main body of protesters..
Haven't we had enough of this misconception that its all about Anti Americanism yet?
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:31 AM   #55
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OK, let me rephrase:

What those two ultra respectful protesters with their moronically illogical slogans failed to comprehend is that the majority of people showing up at the rallies aren't there to support Saddam Hussein, and probably wish he were out of office just as much as you and I.

What they showed up to support was PEACE.

Yay protesters...including Bono.

Boo warmongers.
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:49 AM   #56
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Re: Where was public opinion 10, 20 years ago!?

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx
We should have taken Saddam out in the 80's once we learned he liked to gas his own people, but he was too useful to the U.S. at the time, and instead we had Rummy happily shaking hands with the fucker
I love how on these boards everyone says the United States created and allowed Saddam to continue to exist. Your facts, while partially correct, are distorted and not 100% correct. There were other nations that helped in the creation of Saddam. Other nations that had the same fears the UNited States did. Lest you forget France and Germany were major players before Rumsfeld ever took his trip. China, France and Russia, supplied a majority of his military equiptment and might.

France provided the nuclear technology and Germany provided a majority of the biological technology.

Yes, Rummy shook his hand and the United States delivered huge packages of food aid freeing up lots of cash for Iraq to spend it on weapons. We also provided some technology.

Was it the United States that helped creat him, YES. Does the responsibility rest soley on our shoulders? NO at least take the time to look at the history of the past 40 years and not just one photograph.


Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx
We had a chance in the first Gulf War to remove Saddam, but "political pressure" and "public opinion" kept daddy Bush from doing so. Why on earth Bush bowed to public pressure is beyond me. Worse yet, why on earth this opinion was counter to the removal of Saddam and didn't seem to mind his gross human-rights violations is again mind-boggling. Shortsightedness? Self-interest? Or just plain apathy? Yet, even that war was steeped with corruption, so maybe it was designed that way.[/B]
Again, you may be partially right. However, your facts are 100% wrong. The Gulf War was not about the removal of Saddam from anywhere other than Kuwait. That said, if he had dies in the attacks during the war I do not think that anyone would have cried, and yes he was a target. However, the UN RESOLUTIONS only authorized the use of force to remove the occupying army from Kuwait. We were part of a coalition and had to respect the coalition.

People are screaming today, work through the UN, work through the UN. Which do you all want. Working through the UN last time left us Saddam. Now they UN does not want to do ANYTHING.

But you blame the US. Take a look at the Security Council. They wrote the resolutions. They brokered the peace. They are in charge of enforcing the resolutions.


Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx
Instead of a limited tactical extraction of Saddam we are going to see an "over-the-top" shock-and-awe strategy from the pentagon. It's designed to intimidate and destroy absolutely. Most Iraqi soldiers want their freedom just as the civilians. But they're forced to fight or be executed. Yet, they're going to die. Only Saddam's Royal Guard is fiercely loyal to him. We have the weaponry and technology to disable Saddam's military regime with very little casualty. The pentagon has publically (but limitedly) stated we will see the use of new electromagnetic weaponry in Iraq. If the royal guard has to go, then all the better, but why all this purposefully-driven over the top nonsense is beyond me. It just means excessive spending $$$ (good for the military-industrial machine and the Federal Reserve), excessive casualties, excessive anti-US sentiment, and other complications. If we were really doing this as a humanitarian and preemptive mission, then we should be as humanitarian in our war plans as possible. But we're not, we have a MASSIVE buildup and we're going to use the shock-and-awe strategy and flex our big muscles and make sure every one else gets the message. U.S. imperalism will not be deterred!

I think most everybody is for the removal of Saddam, and sense it can be done without a massive full-scale shock-and-awe war and the hidden agendas associated with it. I think that is what is reflected in the anti-war movement more than anything. [/B]
Excellent part of your post by the way. I like it . I do not agree with it and I find your imperialism comment insuulting but hey, it is a free world.

I guess in your statement above, you think the whole army is going to let us go into Bagdhad untouched? They will just let us go right in and fight the LOYAL soldiers to Saddam? I hope you are right. However there is a problem, the Iraqi's will fight because inside of the units are the al-Amn-Khas (SSO). They are in the miltary units and they are there to execute people who do not follow orders. They are directed by non other than Saddam's Son Quasayy.

But maybe the regular forces won't fight and we can do your Strategic strike. But do I think it is wise to allow an Army to remain ARMED behind us on the chance that they are not going to allow us to go fight the the Murafiqin, the al-Himaya, the al-Amn al-Qasr, and the al-Haras al-Jumhuri al-kas. And any other layer of special security force that this man is surrounded by.

If the world were looking to enforce the UN resolutions then we should have less there. And there would be more troops from other countries supporting us, since EUROPE, RUSSIA, and CHINA helped to create him.

Do you have the breakdown of the troop make up because I think you are missing major details. WE need massive amounts of troops for supplies, medical, and prisoner processing. There have already been Iraqi soldiers escaping and surrendering. Not all of the troops are there in the manner you speak of.

As an American, I am 100% for whatever action it takes to protect American and civilian lives. IF we need this many troops so be it. How many American soldiers died the last time? 150. If that is what it takes to preserve the lives of the people who put themselves on the line for us, so be it. As for using new weapons to disable their infrastructure, IT IS A WAR. Do you fight to lose?

One last thing, on top of removing Saddam and his sons, you will have to do something about the Ba'ath party and the cities that re loyal to Saddam. Yes, not all Iraqi's are looking to be liberated. He has done an excellent job at keeping the cities loyal to him well fed, with great medical supplies, and other nice perks.

PEACE
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Old 02-20-2003, 09:52 AM   #57
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Actually, those pictures are kind of funny, although war didn't end communism.



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Old 02-20-2003, 10:07 AM   #58
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Re: I'll try to answer

Quote:
Originally posted by elfyx


...I do think that most everyone agrees that Saddam's human-rights abuses are intolerable. It's exacerbated by Bush's "you are either with us OR against us" rhetoric. There's no middle ground, or alternative solution with that kind of propaganda.
This I can agree with. I truthfully believe that in that one statement he set us back tremendously in the eyes of the world. It troubles me incredibly that his advisors let him say it. It may very well be one of the reasons, we are not able to use diplomacy in the security council. Why would a proud nation like France or Russia, go along with us? Diplomatically, that statement cost us.
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Old 02-20-2003, 10:25 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by gabrielvox
moronically illogical
Your deduction and inference is not great either.
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Old 02-20-2003, 10:30 AM   #60
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I want to congratulate this thread for delving into an extremely serious issue and yet staying calm and respectful.
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