JCOSTER
ONE love, blood, life
diamond said:
Exactly.
Justice for Jessica........
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Exactly.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
melon said:So, in other words, who "is" and "isn't" a "Christian" is defined strictly by the Religious Right?
Obviously.
It's very interesting. If it doesn't fit, he is not a Christian. Who cares that the same person is praying every evening, reading the bible, going to church on Sunday...
He doesn't fit the description, so he can't be a Christian.
phillyfan26
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diamond said:
Or, apparently, people who don't agree with every view of Christianity too.
Or at least you.
melon said:So, in other words, who "is" and "isn't" a "Christian" is defined strictly by the Religious Right?
This is their favourite pasttime.
But hey when evangelicals start calling Mormons kooky nutbags, then that's a BAD and INTOLERANT thing.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
phillyfan26 said:
They were arrested for it because they broke the law, regardless of their Church affliation or attendence.
I feel like I'm dialoguing with a 12 year old.
You're back on Ignore.
dbs
martha
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Something the Christain Right doesan't like to think about: http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/8695/
I remember this part of the case vividly. No one liked to talk about it, but it was mentioned in more than one source at the time.
I remember this part of the case vividly. No one liked to talk about it, but it was mentioned in more than one source at the time.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
diamond said:
Well, your debating skills aren't that much more mature.
phillyfan26
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diamond said:
You're the one who brought Church affiliation into the argument in the first place!
No. You are dialoguing with a 16 year old who's got his head on a lot straighter than yours.
JCOSTER
ONE love, blood, life
Vincent Vega said:
The only description of a christian I know is one that believes in Christ. If the man that murdered Jessica repents his sins and believes in Christ in his last days, he'll be seeing you heaven.
No one says you have to be blue, yellow or orange to be a christian.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
JCOSTER said:
But if you're a repentant child-killer, you're good to go.
JCOSTER
ONE love, blood, life
martha said:
Yes, something I will never understand and have a hard time believing it.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Well in this country we have the 1st Amendment and I will speak my mind.
No, I haven't been banned, and if you want to be sympathetic to child molesters that's your preogative, but I will call you on it.
dbs
phillyfan26
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No one is being sympathetic to child molestors here.
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
JCOSTER said:
You're on the right path, but that doesn't absolved you from earthly and legal penalties, only eternal ones.
dbs
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
JCOSTER said:
JCOSTER said:
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
diamond said:
Where the fuck is your eveidence that BVS is "sympathetic" to child molesters? You are beyond help sometimes diamond. You make NO SENSE!
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
diamond said:
Who's being sympathetic? Your logistical skills are lacking.
But you should be banned for the personal attacks you make.
phillyfan26
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Diamond, we are debating earthly and legal penalties. Whether they should be changed.
martha
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diamond said:
Said God, aka diamond.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Mormons aren't Christians anyway, by definition of the Religious Right.
From a larger societal perspective, I think it's because "conservatives" are defined by their bizarre behavior, and, for the sake of "diversity," they are tolerated--i.e., "they don't know any better." "Liberals," however, are held up to a higher standard, and, as such, personal attacks issued by a "liberal" is seen as far worse, because "you should know better than that" or "you are smarter than that." It's like humoring your senile grandma in the nursing home. You don't have the heart to tell her that she's completely lost her mind.
Perhaps some people here won't like what I've just said (and I don't mean any personal offense by it to anyone here), but it has been noted that many in the "GOP elite" think this way about their core conservative constituency. They just pander to "grandma's delusions" as a necessary evil to get "grandma's vote," so that they can get their larger agenda through.
The "war in Iraq" and the "war on terrorism," for instance, has its ideological heritage with the neoconservative PNAC organization--which predated 9/11 by at least five years. Now that the neocons and PNAC itself have disintegrated over the last couple of years, it should be no surprise that nobody is really seriously interested in expanding this "war" beyond Afghanistan and Iraq, and once both are resolved, chances are that we'll resume to old Cold War tactics of a "war of words." We're already doing this in regards to Iran.
redhotswami
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Pro-dp people...what are your opinions of the list of countries that have gov't sanctioned executions that I posted earlier? What do you think this says about the U.S. as a developed "super-power" of a nation? How do you feel that the U.S. grouped with a number of countries which we recognize have corrupt politics and governance?
What I'm getting at here, is I think the DP is archaic, and has no purpose in policy. It seems as though many other developed nations agree. Perhaps there was a time for it, I don't know, I didn't live in that era. I can only speak from my experience in modern times. But now, there is no need. Really.
This, environmental laws, and many others, seem to be areas where the rest of the world "gets it" and the U.S. falls far behind. I think it is a damn shame.
This isn't about religion. This is about PROGRESS, and bettering the U.S. society and the world.
And for the record, NOBODY here that is anti-death penalty is sympathetic towards criminals of any kind. That seems to be yet another misconception of pro-dp people.
And JC, I know you stated earlier that our minds might change if it were our child, and I don't think that is a fair assessment. If my parents were raped and killed, I'd be pissed off as well. But I would not want to be responsible for the death of their killer. Isn't there enough death already? It won't bring my parents back. It won't make me feel closure of any kind. I personally wish Cho hadn't killed himself. I know that is different, because he took his own life. But I think it is still a related example of a killer who will never learn his lesson. Who will never be brought to justice. I miss my student dearly. But I wish he were alive so he can atone for what he did, and see the pain that he caused, and live with that burden for the rest of his life. Executing criminals who have killed somebody is letting them get away with it, because there is nothing to be learned.
And I'm having a hard time seeing that people are still pro-DP after seeing Kenneth's Foster's case. I mean, come the fuck on. It is obviously a flawed system.
What I'm getting at here, is I think the DP is archaic, and has no purpose in policy. It seems as though many other developed nations agree. Perhaps there was a time for it, I don't know, I didn't live in that era. I can only speak from my experience in modern times. But now, there is no need. Really.
This, environmental laws, and many others, seem to be areas where the rest of the world "gets it" and the U.S. falls far behind. I think it is a damn shame.
This isn't about religion. This is about PROGRESS, and bettering the U.S. society and the world.
And for the record, NOBODY here that is anti-death penalty is sympathetic towards criminals of any kind. That seems to be yet another misconception of pro-dp people.
And JC, I know you stated earlier that our minds might change if it were our child, and I don't think that is a fair assessment. If my parents were raped and killed, I'd be pissed off as well. But I would not want to be responsible for the death of their killer. Isn't there enough death already? It won't bring my parents back. It won't make me feel closure of any kind. I personally wish Cho hadn't killed himself. I know that is different, because he took his own life. But I think it is still a related example of a killer who will never learn his lesson. Who will never be brought to justice. I miss my student dearly. But I wish he were alive so he can atone for what he did, and see the pain that he caused, and live with that burden for the rest of his life. Executing criminals who have killed somebody is letting them get away with it, because there is nothing to be learned.
And I'm having a hard time seeing that people are still pro-DP after seeing Kenneth's Foster's case. I mean, come the fuck on. It is obviously a flawed system.
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martha
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unico, clearly you are soft on child molesters. 
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
unico said:
I agree with you here, and before the DP was reintroduced in the states opposition to it was greater than support. That changed some thirty years ago and the support group of the DP has been larger since, making an abolition of it unlikely because it would make you un-electable.
The support with it goes hand in hand with the States becoming more and more conservative again, with a new heyday of Christian conservatism.
Obviously, in Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand there are no Christians anymore, how else could it be that we are lighting the Colosseum each time a US state or other country abolishes the death penalty? How else could it be that we have come away from the idea that the ills of the world will be cured by harsh punishment, and letting the people get their revenge?
But you are in good company, apparently.
JCOSTER said:
I look at it this way. We "judge" people, based on what we can "observe." Since we are not supernatural, we can only observe the concrete--actions and spoken/written words.
We know, however, that we have internal thoughts, which cannot be observed by the outside world, and, as such, cannot be "judged" by mankind. God, by definition, though, is able to see us both internally and externally, so the true judgment of intolerable people like those on Death Row can only be reserved by God. If many Christians are to state that we are judged solely by our faith and not by our works, then we must accept that even the most despicable of people can have such faith and enter heaven.
From a theological POV, this makes the death penalty an act of incredible hatred, as someone stuck in prison without possibility of parole is always with "the possibility" of finding his or her faith until the day they die. By prematurely ending these lives, we might be cutting short the chances for these individuals to get that faith; and, as such, we are "playing God." As for whether we, ourselves, are going to be judged for killing these people, potentially depriving them the chance to "find God"? I guess we'll find out someday.
Vincent Vega
Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS
unico said:
I've been thinking about that statement because it brought something to mind.
In 1993, when I was Seven, a little girl got kidnapped close to where my grandparents lived. My mother went to school with the father of that girl. My grandfather found her bike the next day.
My brother and I usually spent the summer holidays with my grandparents. We have been where the kidnapping occured. We have played there a lot. My cousins have lived there.
Later, when Mark Dutroix got caught, the parents of the girl hoped their daughter would be found in his garden.
But never were my parents, my uncle and aunt, or her parents for the death penalty, and I was raised opposing the death penalty.
She never was found.
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2861U2
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
melon said:
That's between the convicted and God, though. Keep in mind, people spend years and years on death row. It's not like Couey or anyone else is going to die tomorrow. They will have plenty of time to find God, if they really want to. If they really want forgiveness and for God to hear them, it doesnt take years. It takes minutes.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
2861U2 said:
I think you missed the whole point. You can't set a timeline for when someone will find God, and that's exactly what the DP does. That timeline should be set by God and God alone.
Irvine511
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diamond said:
its so funny when you speak for "Christians" -- when you know that most self-identified "Christians' would freak out at anyone associated with LDS speaking for them.
me? i don't give a shit. religion has nothing at all to do with this discussion. NOT A THING.
but, here's your shovel, continue to dig that hole.
Most Christians aren't necessarily right.
According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that African Americans were an inferior race and didn't deserve equality.
According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that women shouldn't vote, shouldn't compete with men in the marketplace, and didn't deserve equality.
According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.
diamond said:
According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that African Americans were an inferior race and didn't deserve equality.
According to polling data, most Christians in this country believed that women shouldn't vote, shouldn't compete with men in the marketplace, and didn't deserve equality.
According to polling data, most Christians in this country think Jesus was white.
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
diamond said:
and if i throw you in the water, and you can swim, then you can float, and we all know that only witches can float, so you must be a witch! burn her at the stake!
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