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Old 08-26-2007, 08:50 PM   #346
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
-- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.
Maybe, but the religious beliefs of the respondents aren't included in the survey data.

And, many (if not all) of the people here in FYM getting worked up about executions are self-described Christians.
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Old 08-26-2007, 08:53 PM   #347
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Originally posted by JCOSTER


If it was my child who was a murderer, he would have to face his punishment even if it were the death penalty. Could I pull the switch on my own.........no.
I agree that people need to be held accountable for what they've done, thus receive the necessary punishment/rehabilitation. I just don't think that death is the only answer to that. I was asking because I think it would be a terrible thing, for the gov't and your community, to tell you your own beloved son deserves to die. You know your son better than anyone else. Earlier you spoke about how having children changes your perspective and you become more protective. Would that protective-ness make you rethink the death penalty then if your own son committed the crime?
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Old 08-26-2007, 08:57 PM   #348
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^ Honestly, I'm not sure, and if something like that happens in a family it just breaks everyone. If my kids committed a crime they would have to serve the punishment no matter what. I hope I am raising them better not to committ a crime.

As much as I can't imagine being a parent of a murdered child I can't imagine being a parent of the one who had done the deed either.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:00 PM   #349
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to accuse you of being a bad parent or accusing your children of being bad. I know you're a wonderful, loving, and dedicated mother. I'm asking for a "what if" scenario, is all.
Really though, the death penalty is like somebody else taking away the life of the child you bore and raised. Somebody else decided your child's life needs to end. Which is what murders do to other people. Can't there be another way to punish them?
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:03 PM   #350
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Yeah, there is but if that is the fate and concrete proof is 100% then thats what would be even though it would kill me too.
I totally gotchya.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:03 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


While support for capital punishment is on the decline, it remains much higher among those who believe in deterrence, [/url]
This makes sense.

Those who "believe" in deterrence are flat out wrong and either have never looked at the criminal law and psych research, or just don't care.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:04 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
From a recent article about a poll:

While support for capital punishment is on the decline, it remains much higher among those who believe in deterrence, suggesting a shift in justification away from a "for the good of society" argument. The DPIC poll found that 62 percent of people still favor the death penalty as a possible punishment for those convicted of murder.

A more compelling reason for opposing the death penalty, many argue, is widespread belief that innocent people have been executed. "The lack of faith in deterrence has been involved in the debate, but it has not dominated it," says David Elliot, spokesman for the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty. "I honestly believe innocence is a more salient factor."

2 interesting things -- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.

But even more interesting, the reason for decline, and I for one, am in this crowd -- I do not endorse it, unless I know 100% the person is guilty, and then it has to be for what appears to be a permanent character flaw in the form of a lack of respect for human life.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar...athpenalty.htm
Debating about it as a deterrence would be quite pointless, as it is obviously not a deterrence.
It's a well-known fact that most criminals, when comitting the crime, don't think for a second about the consequences.

And if it was a deterrence, as pointed out before, crime rate in the US would be much lower, or vice versa for countries not using capital punishment.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:05 PM   #353
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER
Most of the time here you make quite good remarks and points that are well taken.

What you've said here is really offensive.

I through my values, beliefs and morals throw them right out there for everyone in a discussion and I get all this religious backlash and called a terrorist.

Irvine11, I refuse to stoop to your level when theres nothing left to say. The terrorist comment was very unique, you out did yourself.
Irvine's post was a satirical inversion of these "points," which I received multiple private complaints about last night:
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
I always find it quite telling in this thread that that secularists thinkers have a disproportionate amount of symphathy for child molesters and oppose the death penalty.

They blur the lines between right and wrong, one can only call them on their ill placed logic, and point out to them the majority of Americans opposed theie pathetic line of thinking.
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Christians don't insist on killing, murdering pedophiles do.
This is part of your twisted thinking.

Chrisrians insist on executing all facets of the law which include letting a sentenced murdering pedophile be executed, which you have a problem with.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I'm Christian and anti-DP so stop making all of Christianity follow you.
Originally posted by diamond
So call yourself a Christian, if it builds your self esteem or boosts your self confidence or whatever.
So, diamond is the last word on what Jesus wants His followers to believe concerning the death penalty, and furthermore to be a secularist is to support child molesters and murderers and not care at all what they do to their victims. This isn't the first time diamond has resorted to accusing people of supporting child molesters when he can't come up with a more structured critique of their arguments; he did the same thing to me in an unrelated thread a few months back. It wouldn't be the first time he's snidely told people they aren't "true Christians" like him or suggested that secularism is the root cause of child molestation, murder and God knows what else, either. That history is the main reason why you were eliciting offended protests to the effect that Christians don't have a monopoly on proper ethical behavior, even though you weren't suggesting they do. I agree the separate terrorism analogy was over the top, but I'm also certain it wasn't aimed at you.

All this aimless squabbling over who deserves which labels and what blame, rather than analyzing and debating the issue at hand, is what results from trying to force people into some prefabricated ideological box and then use lazy ad hominem attacks and cheap rhetorical potshots to dismiss what they never even said...whether that's through failure to articulate--we're not all ace debaters; so the fuck what--or unwillingness of others to listen and ask questions and have the patience to help someone get out what they really want to say, rather than rushing to beat them back from the word Go. Unfortunately a lot of us in here, on both "sides," succumb to that temptation more often than we should.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:07 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


This makes sense.

Those who "believe" in deterrence are flat out wrong and either have never looked at the criminal law and psych research, or just don't care.

Nothing new. They believe it, so you can point them out it isn't, but they won't believe.
Since everything is just about believing, apparently.

When they believe water is dry, you can spill them over and they will say it's dry. Because they believe it.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:10 PM   #355
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Originally posted by yolland
what results from trying to force people into some prefabricated ideological box
In some cases, people are quite adept at building their own boxes, then getting annoyed when others start asking about the construction methods and materials.
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:23 PM   #356
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In some cases, yes. But that rationale also works very nicely as a self-flattering excuse for using "questions" as battering rams rather than requests for more information.
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Old 08-26-2007, 10:13 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally posted by JCOSTER
Yeah, there is but if that is the fate and concrete proof is 100% then thats what would be even though it would kill me too.
I totally gotchya.
I still would like to know how we should systematically assign values to the levels of evidence. I don't understand how can we measure "how sure" we are that someone's guilty.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:23 PM   #358
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In some cases, yes. But that rationale also works very nicely as a self-flattering excuse for using "questions" as battering rams rather than requests for more information.
Yes.

But the requests for information got tricky as well.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:33 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
2 interesting things -- 62% -- that's a lot. And obviously way more than "conservative christians" eh? So, it would be nice to stop using the "all you christians" lead in on these threads.


in *this* thread, it has been "all you Christians" complete with totally irrelevant-to-law Biblical quotes and charges of "you're not a true Christian" if you believe such-and-such. others have noted that many Christians -- like, you know, Catholics -- are religiously opposed to the death penalty.

but, in *this* thread, and in generalized protestant evanglical circles, the death penalty is supported with the (again, irrelevant) Biblical points.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:41 PM   #360
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Originally posted by JCOSTER



No, I am appalled that you would even think such a thing, I didn't want people here to loose perspective on the type of crime that was committed on this little girl.

And please do not put words in my mouth! I also NEVER said I am holier than thou, if you read all my posts you get that.

I think there is a huge lack of respect for the religious beliefs people have here.


1. my 2nd post was not aimed at you; it was satirical; and i am sorry you took it personally. yolland has addressed this, and her assessment was indeed correct.

2. posting her picture was essentially the same argument as diamond was putting forth -- which is, "you don't care about this little girl if you don't support the death penalty for this guy." and that, to me, is completely bogus, and completely offensive.

3. my response was worded too strongly, and for that i apologize. i stand by my point as stated above -- you do not care more about her than me because you support the death penalty.

4. one's religious beliefs are utterly irrelevant to the appropriate application of secular American laws. i don't care one way or the next what you believe. the Bible is meaningless in the context of this argument. if you want to use it as a way to form a personal opinion, that's fine, but that's a long way from someone using the Bible as a Cliffs Notes version of American law.

5. you strike me as a kind, caring person. and so am i. and i have not "lost perspective" on what's happened here because i remain opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances. he could do this to 10 little girls and i still wouldn't support the death penalty because my oppostion to the death penalty has nothing to do with the implication that a crime has to be *really* bad to warrant the death penalty and everything to do with the fact that the death penalty has nothing to do with justice, the rule of law, peace, order, good government, etc.
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