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Old 08-26-2007, 10:10 AM   #316
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
Good post

Yes, God does indeed kill hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people in the Bible, though most are from the Old Testament. As diamond pointed out, most of those deaths were to remove those who refused to obey.

Technically, God has killed every person who has ever died.

Now let's wait for BVS to tell God to practice what he preaches.
It's amazing that you and diamond think that there's no possible way any other interpretation can be correct. Yet, the only counter-argument to their analysis on passages is, "Nope. Wrong." Diamond did so a few pages ago.

What does the Bible have to do with the issue?
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:32 AM   #317
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Originally posted by anitram
This constant referral to the Bible must be a uniquely American thing because I've read a lot of DP literature from Canada and the UK and I can't say I've ever, EVER seen it as a line of reasoning. Here, you can't get away from it on this thread for a second.

It's honestly tiresome. We can discuss this in terms of the rule of law and a legal system, but how do you make an argument when somebody invokes Scriptures? You've already lost. They have their beliefs and their interpretation and that's that. Totally useless form of discussion, to be frank.




catching up on this thread, and i couldn't agree more.

frankly, some Christians are little more than national embarssments and NO DIFFERENT in their outlook than the "islamic terrorists" they want Rudy to go kill.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:34 AM   #318
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Originally posted by JCOSTER
Just to remind everyone here this is the little girl in the article mentioned above.



this is cheap emotional blackmail. you can do better than this and i'm insulted that you somehow think that opposition to the death penalty means that i care ANY LESS about this little girl than you do. you are not holier than i am, you are not more compassionate than i am, you are not more concerned with this tragedy than i am.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:40 AM   #319
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
[B]I don't give a shit about what it says in the bible - surely we've seen over the last how ever number or years people justifying the worst crap in the world by the laws written in some religious book. [B]


and you know what just occured to me?

America has more "believers" than any other western country. American has more "Christians" who go to church regularly than any other western country. American Christians scream and yell about how we're founded on "Judeo-Christian values" and how the Founding Fathers were Jesus Freaks themselves.

and yet, we've got, by far, the highest murder rate in the western world.

you do the math.

so, let's drop our Bibles, dump Jesus, close the churches, and maybe we'll see our murder rates drop to levels seen in heathen Western Europe and Australia.

please, dump Jesus for Jessica. if you cared about Jessica, you'd do your best to secularize America so that our murder rate will go down.

if you've just come back from church, you don't care about Jessica and you want little girls to get murdered.

please, do it for Jessica.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:43 AM   #320
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Quote:
This constant referral to the Bible must be a uniquely American thing because I've read a lot of DP literature from Canada and the UK and I can't say I've ever, EVER seen it as a line of reasoning. Here, you can't get away from it on this thread for a second.

It's honestly tiresome. We can discuss this in terms of the rule of law and a legal system, but how do you make an argument when somebody invokes Scriptures? You've already lost. They have their beliefs and their interpretation and that's that. Totally useless form of discussion, to be frank.
Yeah interesting. But it might be argued that much of western law has it's origins in judeo-christian law. Likewise stated in other cultures.
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Old 08-26-2007, 11:50 AM   #321
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Yeah interesting. But it might be argued that much of western law has it's origins in judeo-christian law. Likewise stated in other cultures.


no one cut and pastes the Bible into American law.

not that they wouldn't if we didn't stop them, but American law does not call upon a higher power as the ultimate arbiter of justice and that we'd better hurry up and kill some motherfuckers so they can get to God quickly and then he can judge them in his pearly celestial court, as has been suggested in here.

i'm fine with judeo-christian cultural influences, but it's crap to think that the Bible has any sort of authority over any American citizen.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:03 PM   #322
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Difference between the US and other countries i sthat here people use th ebible to justify the death penalty, in other countries they used it to get it abolished.

To the Diamonds and JCOSTERs of the world, do you think you have a better understanding of the bible than the likes of the Catholic, Episcopal and Methodist churches who use it to OPPOSE the death penalthy ?
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:10 PM   #323
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Wow.

The heathens argue for the lives of strangers in a death penalty thread. The Christians quote Scripture to make themselves feel better about killing strangers.

And we wonder why our country is in the state it's in.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:12 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Yeah interesting. But it might be argued that much of western law has it's origins in judeo-christian law. Likewise stated in other cultures.
But it's not true. Our direct legal influences have to do with Enlightenment-era philosophy and thought and, to a lesser extent, British common law.

If our legal system really was influenced by Christianity, as many people erroneously state, then we would likely have been like the other "Christian states" of the 18th century: absolute monarchies getting their moral dictates from the Vatican (Catholic states) or absolute monarchies with the monarch as the head of the church, with no religious freedom allowances (Protestant states). It should be no coincidence that both the United States and France's revolutions, which occurred very close together, were created with the intent of democracy. That's because both were greatly molded by...you guessed it...the Enlightenment.

The idea of the U.S. being molded on "Judeo-Christian values" was evangelical Protestant revisionism during the mid-19th century, used for purposes of evangelism. It was as much bounded "in fact" as the myth of George Washington chopping down his father's cherry tree.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:30 PM   #325
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Melon,

You use the term "legal-system" as opposed to law. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of "laws" as relating to murder, theft, etc...
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:38 PM   #326
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Originally posted by 2861U2


Now let's wait for BVS to tell God to practice what he preaches.
Are you serious? Kid, you're way out of your league.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:45 PM   #327
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Melon,

You use the term "legal-system" as opposed to law. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of "laws" as relating to murder, theft, etc...
Then if we are to give credit where credit is due, then we should be thanking the Sumerians, Babylonians, and (for the latter half of the OT) Persians where the Old Testament's laws get their heritage from.

"An eye for an eye," for instance, originated with the Babylonian "Code of Hammurabi" (c. 1760 B.C.), which, itself, has many similarities with the Sumerian "Code of Ur-Nammu" (c. 2100 B.C.). Compare this with the historically disputed, but traditional date of c. 1400 B.C. for Mosaic Law.

Basically, what we're seeing is not all that extraordinary, as all of these cultures were ethnically similar enough that it's no surprise that they all have similar laws. The Old Testament is basically referencing ancient Sumer's laws, much like we often reference Greco-Roman laws and principles from 2,000+ years ago today.

I say this mainly with the hope that we gain the perspective that we should not be burdened by trying to uphold archaic and/or nonsensical laws just because they're "old" or perceived as "Biblical." No, more often than not, they have a larger, non-deified heritage. And, as such, revulsion to things like theft, murder, etc. can exist in a non-Judeo-Christian frame of reference--meaning that society will not plunge into a murderous rampage if we don't base our laws off of religious precepts. There is ample precedent of secular revulsion to these crimes.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:41 PM   #328
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This thread is downright terrifying. He we are talking about the death penalty in a secular nation, and everyone who is arguing in favor of it is using a religious text as their evidence.

It simply boggles the mind. How can you justify using a religious text to justify something that affects those who don't even believe that religious text? The Bible is not law.

And honestly, for the benefit of your religion you should pray it never is! If it becomes law, then whose interpretation? What if their interpretation doesn't agree with yours? Would you be ok if the Catholic interpretation of the Bible became law? Or just the Methodist? Or just the Southern Baptist? You might end up on the wrong side of the law even though you are a practicing Christian.

Do we really want to go down this road? Honestly!
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:54 PM   #329
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Diemen,

Completely agree. You do understand, many, many people frame social activity within religion or spirituality. Its the framework of their lives.

I agree, keep it separate, but would object if a law were passed that forced me to do something that is not in the framework of my belief system -- say, "wearing pants".

Joking, btw.
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Old 08-26-2007, 07:56 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Either death penalty or horror in jail?
So, either Europe doesn't exist, or do you mean we are doing that shit?
I think you know what countries have those types of punishments.
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