Justice for Jessica........

[indra]

So be it, but if it where my child....words cannot explain the punishment I would want them to have.

I can certainly understand wanting the person who hurts or kills your child to suffer the most horrible death possible. But would you be willing to do what you want done yourself? If you could, what does that make you? How could you do what you say you'd like done to this guy and live with yourself? Even if he's the scum of the earth, could you really inflict this type of torture on him and be able to live with yourself? Would you be able to explain it away to yourself by saying it was justified because he was bad?

Or would you require someone else to do it for you? If this is the option, how do you justify making someone else become a barbarian? And what do you do with that person if he/she (or you, if you do it yourself) if he/she starts to get a rush out of it? Doesn't that possibility make that person unfit to be in the general population?

Opposition to the death penalty or to eye-for-an-eye type punishment is not as much because of any sympathy for the condemned as it is the realisation that it causes a detrimental coarsening of society. That's not good for anyone.


* edit -- well damn. I just read Irvine's post and he said it much better than I did.

 

[Pearl]

I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the death penalty, but I have to admit - I feel those who rape and kill children should be put to death. Mainly because it would stop them from hurting kids again.
I know killing John Couey won't bring back Jessica Lunsford, and I know the Bible says "he who is without sin cast the first stone". But it is disgusting what these people do, and the worst thing is: you can't stop them! There's no cure for pedophilia! I even heard that physical castration doesn't even help. The way I see it, its not about revenge, but saving the world from these psychos.

I know a good idea would be to lock them up and through away the key, but the way the justice system works, they may be out once they reach the age of 65 so the prison won't have to care of them in old age.

 

[deep]

Most would agree with you here, which is no suprise.
Most Americans and fair minded people would see your post as a strange assesment.

First off, an execution is not a "justified killing of someone".

It is execution of a guilty person who snuffed out a young innocent child.

Other than another death occurs, there are no similaraties.

To suggest otherwise is twisted.





dbs

On second thought, I should have said some things in common
instead of a lot of things


this is truly a despicable person, a child killer is the worst
but society is not served by so-called lawful killing of people
and most civilized governments have rejected killing of even the most despicable


and honest to God

I don't give a damn about this Bible verse or that verse

one can always find one that will support their view

and we do not live under Shia Law
and God help us if we ever do.

 

[BVS]

Where do that say that Child Killers are to be spared the death penalty?

Where does it say the DP should even exist?

 

[diamond]

everything to do with vengence.

From my view this has nothing to due with vegence, I'm not a vengeful person.

dbs

 

[redhotswami]

it's ultra-emotional cases like these that demonstrate exactly why the death penalty has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with vengence.

i understand the need for vengence. there's a part of me that would love to see this man buried alive as well. or that Susan Smith woman to be put in a car and thrown into a lake and to drown like her children did. these impluses are totally understandable especially when we're dealing with horrific murders involving children.

but that doesn't mean it's good policy, or good for society, or really good for anyone. we misunderstand the death penalty. it's a penalty. it's a punishment meted out in the way that 5 years or 10 years or 6 months or 30 years is meted out as a punishment. punishments for criminals aren't designed to make anyone feel better, they are designed to serve a specific purpose. the reason why death is a flawed punishment has been gone over so many times -- it's finality, it's racist application, the irrationality of showing that killing is wrong by killing somone -- that it doesn't bear much repeating.

i think cases like these understandably make us cry out for vengence, and that is not what the justice system is for. it's vengence that leads to a breakdown in the rule of law. it's vengence that fules sectarian killings in Iraq, or Bosnia, or Sudan. vengence, while profoundly human and understandable, isn't an emotion that should be pursued by the justice system.

exactly! so he's killed. did he get what he deserved? no i don't think so. there was nothing to "get". i agree he needs to be punished. but i can't think of a better punishment than atonement itself.

i guess the death penalty was enacted to protect the innocent...but to me the purpose of punishment - whether it is murders, curfew breakers, or whoever, is to teach a lesson, right? what lesson is to be learned?

i'd be very very angry at this man if Jessica were my child. but i don't think it would comfort me at all knowing i (as the defendant) was responsible for his death by execution.

 

[phillyfan26]

What harm in keeping them in prison for life? They can no longer commit these crimes again.

 

[deep]

What harm in keeping them in prison for life? They can no longer commit these crimes again.

zero harm, period

 

[diamond]

Where does it say the DP should even exist?

Read Matt 18:6.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What would you interpret "mill stone and cast into the sea and drown" to mean exactly?


Please do not tell me that you interpret this as poetry as you've done in the past with other verses, for if you do this justifies leaving you on permenant ignore status.

dbs

 

[redhotswami]

according to amnesty international, these are the current governments that permit the death penalty:

Afghanistan
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Barbados
Belarus
Belize
Botswana
Burundi
Cameroon
Chad
China (People's Republic)
Comoros
Congo (Democratic Republic)
Cuba
Dominica
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Gabon
Ghana
Guatemala
Guinea
Guyana
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Libya
Malawi
Malaysia
Mongolia
Nigeria
Oman
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Qatar
Rwanda
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Saudi Arabia
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Somalia
Sudan
Swaziland
Syria
Taiwan
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Trinidad and Tobago
Uganda
United Arab Emirates
United States
Uzbekistan
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

seriously. just look at some of the countries we are grouped with.

 

[deep]

Please tell me how you interpret this

What would you interpret "mill stone and cast into the sea and drown" to mean exactly?

dbs

 

[phillyfan26]

Please do not tell that you interpret this as poetry as you've done in the past, for if you do this justifies leaving you on permenant ignore status.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Stick him in a coma until he dies of natural causes.

 

[phillyfan26]

The biggest flaw in the idea of the death penalty is that there is always a chance that the person is actually not guilty. It happens. You hear and read the stories. Why take the chance that you are killing someone who is not guilty? The justice system is built on the idea that a guilty verdict derives from a belief beyond a reasonable doubt. Not certainty.

 

[BVS]

Read Matt 18:6.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What would you interpret "mill stone and cast into the sea and drown" to mean exactly?


Please do not tell me that you interpret this as poetry as you've done in the past with other verses, for if you do this justifies leaving you on permenant ignore status.

dbs

Never have I once ever said "as poetry" so you may want to get your facts straight.

You also may want to look at the verse again.

This is the most common interpretation:

‘...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin...’

Now how does that = whoever kills a child?

Also how does "better for him" = this is what you should do?

Please do tell how you make such leaps of logic.

 

[Irvine511]

From my view this has nothing to due with vegence, I'm not a vengeful person.

dbs

could you explain this further?

 

[A_Wanderer]

What about the little ones who don't believe in him? Is it alright to kill kids from non-Christian households?

 

[diamond]

I believe the KJV.

You can take whatever modern new age version of God's scripture to twist it, to a different meaning and this is a symptom of what's wrong with society.

And in other threads where I posted scripture you said 'err looks like poetry to me' meaning you don't accept the KJV there's no point in dialoging about this subject with you any furthur.


dbs

 

[martha]

I believe the KJV.

dbs

An inaccurate translation.

 

[phillyfan26]

I believe the KJV.

You can take whatever modern new age version of God's scripture to twist it, to a different meaning and this is a symptom of what's wrong with society.

The fact that you believe the KJV and then go on to talk about scripture twisting is heavily, heavily ironic and sad.

I could easily make the argument that your belief system is "what's wrong with society."

 

[Irvine511]

Read Matt 18:6.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

What would you interpret "mill stone and cast into the sea and drown" to mean exactly?


Please do not tell me that you interpret this as poetry as you've done in the past with other verses, for if you do this justifies leaving you on permenant ignore status.

dbs

and if the Bible had anything to do with the appropriateness of punishments in what is supposed to be a secular legal system, then this will matter.

no Bible quotes, please. i'm so sick of it being used as some sort of trump card, or even this feigning that it's remotely relevant to what we're talking about.

i don't give a shit what Jesus would or would have wanted. Jesus isn't sentencing people to various punishments based on their crimes. Jesus has nothing to do with this one way or another.

let's talk about the Constitution or something that, you know, has something to do with the situation at hand.

 

[deep]

[No message]

 

[Irvine511]

I believe the KJV.

You can take whatever modern new age version of God's scripture to twist it, to a different meaning and this is a symptom of what's wrong with society.

And in other threads where I posted scripture you said 'err looks like poetry to me' meaning you don't accept the KJV there's no point in dialoging about this subject with you any furthur.


dbs

no one gets punished for violating any rules in the Bible. they get punished for vilating the rule of law as spelled out in the US Constitution and various state constitutions. sure, there's overlap, but the Bible means crap to the justice system.

so let's drop the bible, please.

 

[U2democrat]

I'm all for discussing Constitutional law over Biblical metaphors

 

[diamond]

could you explain this further?

Vengence is up to God.

And where he is going to land thru out eternity will be up to God and what God's vengence is, God has all knowledge of our entire lives, our circumstance and situations. What degree of Hell this person suffers in, only God knows.

Our duty as a society is respect the rule of law, not be gleeful about an execution and send him to his Maker and let God decide what he is going to do with him.


dbs

 

[diamond]

no one gets punished for violating any rules in the Bible. they get punished for vilating the rule of law as spelled out in the US Constitution and various state constitutions. sure, there's overlap, but the Bible means crap to the justice system.

so let's drop the bible, please.

Fine, and that's what happen today.

A poster(s) injected the Savior into the discussion and I have no qualms nor discomfort quoting what Christ said about certain moral crimes, which happen to be violation of certain US laws for some strange reason.

Why most US Laws correlate with a lot of Christian principles well, you can do the math, whether it makes you uncomfortable or not.

dbs

 

[indra]

no one gets punished for violating any rules in the Bible. they get punished for vilating the rule of law as spelled out in the US Constitution and various state constitutions. sure, there's overlap, but the Bible means crap to the justice system.

so let's drop the bible, please.

Agreed!

 

[phillyfan26]

Fine, and that's what happen today.

A poster(s) injected the Savior into the discussion and I have no qualms nor discomfort quoting what Christ said about certain moral crimes, which happen to be violation of certain US laws for some strange reason.

Why most US Laws correlate with a lot of Christian principles well, you can do the math, whether it makes you uncomfortable or not.

dbs

We're debating US laws....

If you don't address my other posts, I'm assuming you concede those arguments.

 

[BVS]

I believe the KJV.

You can take whatever modern new age version of God's scripture to twist it, to a different meaning and this is a symptom of what's wrong with society.

And in other threads where I posted scripture you said 'err looks like poetry to me' meaning you don't accept the KJV there's no point in dialoging about this subject with you any furthur.


dbs

Wow, just wow...

Even the KJV interpretation doesn't follow your leaps of logic.

"offends" doesn't = kill

nor does

"better for him" = this is what you should do

You can take whatever modern new age version of God's scripture to twist it, to a different meaning and this is a symptom of what's wrong with society.

^and this is just a self righteous, judgemental insult to the millions of Christians who don't happen to read the KJV interpretation. But honestly I expect nothing less from you.

 

[Vincent Vega]

We're debating US laws....

If you don't address my other posts, I'm assuming you concede those arguments.

He has probably set you on ignore again. You are certainly too challenging.