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Old 08-26-2007, 12:59 AM   #271
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Originally posted by JCOSTER
I didn't see your link....



Do you see it now?
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:00 AM   #272
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Originally posted by anitram


Yes.

That's EXACTLY what he said when he stated that:



I don't meant to be rude, but....seriously??!!
I take it your not a believer.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:01 AM   #273
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I take it your not a believer.
I think she was being sarcastic with the all-caps exactly.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:01 AM   #274
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I didn't see your link....

But you don't have to like anyone but you must love your neighbor so that if they are in ANY kind of need you help them.

FYI: I don't only believe in the DP because of my religion.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:01 AM   #275
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


There's no such thing as certainty in a system based on guilt beyond a reasonable doubt either.
True, but I am not burdened by a need to defend the death penalty and I agree. You declare that you feel there is no difference between life in prison and death, some people might feel very differently about that. I still think that the death penalty does hold some attraction if people want a guarantee of finality, even if there is no undoing it.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:02 AM   #276
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


I think she was being sarcastic with the all-caps exactly.

Sorry getting tired...
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:04 AM   #277
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True, but I am not burdened by a need to defend the death penalty and I agree. You declare that you feel there is no difference between life in prison and death, some people might feel very differently about that. I still think that the death penalty does hold some attraction if people want a guarantee of finality, even if there is no undoing it.
Well, there was much complaining about how if there's no DP they can still commit the crime, and I was referring to that as in no difference.

My problem with the finality argument remains that there's never certainty that ther person commited the crime. You don't want finality in that case: you want a chance to correct a mistake, better late than never.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:05 AM   #278
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I definately would need 100% concrete proof for the dp to be initiated. In this case with John Couey its concrete.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:07 AM   #279
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Well, there was much complaining about how if there's no DP they can still commit the crime, and I was referring to that as in no difference.

My problem with the finality argument remains that there's never certainty that ther person commited the crime. You don't want finality in that case: you want a chance to correct a mistake, better late than never.
People can get out of a prison, they do not rise from the dead.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:07 AM   #280
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I definately would need 100% concrete proof for the dp to be initiated. In this case with John Couey its concrete.
You see, there is no such thing. In our justice system, it's based on guilt beyong a reasonable doubt. Not certainty.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:08 AM   #281
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There's nothing in this world that is absolute.

Except death...

I mean as far as legal cases go...
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:08 AM   #282
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
People can get out of a prison, they do not rise from the dead.
How often does someone break out of a high security prison? I'm willing to bet it's less than the number of times a man on death row or in prison for life has been set free after they were proven not guilty.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:09 AM   #283
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Capital punishment is implicityvalidated in the NT. Jesus acknowledged the legitamacy of capital punishment before Pilate
(John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.)
No, I'd say that that verse is a scathing indictment against the public that supports and takes joy in state-sanctioned murder. That is, the public servant merely carrying out his duty, with no particular support or zeal for it, will not suffer punishment. Instead, it is those who demand and call out loudly for the state to execute someone who has sinned ("For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin." - John 19:11).

Onto the next one...

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as did the apostle Paul before the Roman Governor Festus.
If you have a book/chapter/verse for this one, it would be convenient for me to comment on.

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Not only so, but one of the thieves crucified with Christ had the candor to confess, We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. (Luke 23:41).
These are not the words of Christ, but that of a fallible man. The larger lesson to be learned is that even the most despised of men are rewarded for their faith. Likewise, the fact that the state has chosen to execute an innocent man (Jesus) outlines the fallacy that only "the guilty" are executed. Did Jesus not say that it was better for many guilty men to go free than it was for one innocent man to die? (You'll have to pardon the fact that I don't remember the entirety of the verse or where it is specifically located.) If anything, the crucifixion of Jesus is a lingering reminder of the flaws of capital punishment--from the fallacies of the populist cries for "justice" and "revenge" that we see in the crowds before Pontius Pilate to the fact that the state is more than willing to cut corners and do anything to satisfy that popular bloodlust than to do what is right. It cannot be forgotten that Jesus was an innocent man who was executed for no reason.

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Moreover, Romans 13 implies that the failure of the governing authorities to apply the "sword" the roman symbol for capital punishment exalts evil and eradicates equity.
That was not the purpose of Romans 13 at all. It did not declare the morality of the actions of the Roman Empire; it only recognized that they were powerless to stop it, and, as such, it was better to cooperate.

In fact, I'd say that this chapter is an early example of the separation of church and state, in that Paul outlines the difference between "civil law," which may or may not be moral, but is a fact of life, and "God's law," which is outlined later in Romans 13 (and happens to be my favorite Biblical verse):

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." - Romans 13:8-10

The fact that Paul recognizes Roman authority and asks his followers to obey their laws is hardly an admission that all Roman laws--or, by extension, government laws--are automatically moral too. The sheer number of Christians to die at the hands of the Romans over the following couple of centuries after this was written would certainly not say that they were moral either. The idea is that Christians must hold themselves to a higher standard of morality than that of the state.

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In short, God instituted capital punishment in the earliest stages of human civilization before the Mosaic Law, and capital punishment is never abrogated by Jesus or the Apostles. Thus capital punishment an enduring moral principle undergirding the sancity of life.
Mosaic Law, and all of its idiosyncrasies, are effectively voided in Acts 15 (I say "effectively," because Acts 15:20 upholds some archaic prohibitions regarding idolatry that are no longer a concern for us today). As such, Old Testament vengeance is no longer "moral" for those who consider themselves to be Christian, and, instead, we have been simultaneously released from the burden of Mosaic Law and given the greater burden of Jesus' commandment so eloquently elaborated in Romans 13:8-10. As we see in this thread, the moral imperative to not only love God and love one's neighbor, but to also "love our enemies" is a far more difficult virtue than our instincts for vengeance.

In short, I must respectfully state that I think any Christians who use the Bible to support the death penalty are not looking at the larger picture, but, instead, are picking out verses and taking them out of context for their own purposes.
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:10 AM   #284
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JCOSTER, I see you reposted yourself as if that was suppose to answer anything. I tried to get you to respond to the context of the scripture, it seems to me you can't. You've decided to go the path of diamond and just ignore it. I'm sorry to see that...
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Old 08-26-2007, 01:12 AM   #285
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
JCOSTER, I see you reposted yourself as if that was suppose to answer anything. I tried to get you to respond to the context of the scripture, it seems to me you can't. You've decided to go the path of diamond and just ignore it. I'm sorry to see that...
I did answer you. Thats why I requoted. I will look again.
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