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Old 10-10-2004, 11:32 PM   #16
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^Now there is an opinion that I respect.
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Old 10-11-2004, 12:47 AM   #17
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I agree.
I'm strong anti-Bush administration.
I also think the dumbing down and over politicising of the media is terrible, and really very sad.
I think Fox News is just attrocious.
I think Fahrenheit is the equivalent on the opposite side of the political spectrum.

If you don't like Fox News, you have to not like Fahrenheit. I think it's that simple.
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Old 10-11-2004, 04:36 AM   #18
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Interesting, I just watched it this week. Based on the reading I have done before hand, I knew a lot of what Moore was trying to get across. the problem is, because of my readings, I knew how the film was worded and edited to give the wrong impression of things.

In fairness, I spent a sleepless night after watching the second half of the film. The footage he put in of the soldiers on patrols, and in the hospital was quite moving. I think it is necessary for supporters of the war to see it, because our news is so sanitized, we do not get the full picture.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:06 AM   #19
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I agree fully with Dreadsox, war is so sanitized by mass media outlets it is like a freaking video game. Al Jazeera etc. does provide a very important part in that it shows the kids with their brains blown out across a street and the utter death and destruction wrought by war. One must balance this suffering with that caused by the regime itself and then it can become apparent which is the lesser of two evils.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:39 AM   #20
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i have no problem bush or kerry

but i hate that fat guy...what is his name..
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:43 AM   #21
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Originally posted by AcrobatMan

but i hate that fat guy...what is his name..
Santa Claus. Fucking socialist, all those handouts.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:51 AM   #22
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I think a better documentary to watch is Control Room.

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Old 10-11-2004, 06:00 AM   #23
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I don't like Bush and i don't like Moore for the same reasons.
Both try to manipulate the masses by quoting facts incomplete and add some "facts" (we can't call them lies today because we can't proof that they should know it better).

Shame on both of them
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:09 AM   #24
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I think that you are right that either winner of the election should be honored. I would not be the one throwing eggs at his car that's for sure. However, I remember when the planes hit the tower and President or not (waiting for secret service or not) I don't agree with just sitting there. I live in NY and that was the most devestating thing I've ever seen. Bush just sat there and had a straight face while NYC was devestated. However, I think when it did happen I was happy Bush was president I think he handled the catastrophe in NY well after the attack. Hillary Clinton is a whole other story.
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:56 AM   #25
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I think that you are right that either winner of the election should be honored. I would not be the one throwing eggs at his car that's for sure. However, I remember when the planes hit the tower and President or not (waiting for secret service or not) I don't agree with just sitting there. I live in NY and that was the most devestating thing I've ever seen. Bush just sat there and had a straight face while NYC was devestated. However, I think when it did happen I was happy Bush was president I think he handled the catastrophe in NY well after the attack. Hillary Clinton is a whole other story.
I think that's what the most damning about Moore's movie -- when he stands back and lets the story tell itself. The way he portrayed 9/11 made me cray -- its amazing how emotional hearing the sounds were without video. And Bush sitting there in that classroom made me so mad. In those seven minutes, I evacuated my building, tried in vain to call my parents and heard people screaming "Oh my God! They're jumping!" as I stood on the street. As a president, you have to scare a few kids to go into action against terrorists. That scene disgusted me.

Same with the scene when the Black Caucus on the floor of the Congress and Gore having to knock every one of them down and let Bush's victory go through. I wouldn't have tossed eggs either but you have to remember how angry a mjority of the country was at the time knowing the guy they voted for lost because the Supreme Court voted along party lines -- and both sides of the Court were guilty of this. And yes, same with the war footage and seeing a mother whose son has died. This woman was standing in front of the White House saying to a protester "My son died." and someone came up to her and said "Alot of people have died." as if this mother's sacrifice was not a big deal.

Moore is a propagandist and sometimes you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. But the best parts of this movie are the parts where he says nothing. The second half of the movie shows what's really going on in Iraq -- families dead, soldiers dead, bombs going off. That's the reality of war and it's not being shown anywhere else.

I would recommend watching Fahrenheit, don't swallow it word for word but watch it.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:22 PM   #26
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The thing is, Sharky, Moore doesn't just let the story tell itself. Moore edits everything a certain way to achieve his objective, not to show things "as they are." If he did, he could have shown the secret service telling Bush from off-camera not to do anything. Or explained the way the secret service works. If Bush would have jumped up with not only children but the entire country watching, there would have been much more hysteria that morning. There was nothing he could have done in 5 minutes anyway. Moore's snide little voice-overs are far from objective as well.

I agree with the whole black caucus thing...but you can blame the senate for that, Bush wasn't responsible. Blame Kerry and Edwards for not signing any of their petitions.

And while what Moore shows from Iraq is disturbing, his point seems to be that people dying makes the war invalid. The sad truth is that people die in every war. We aren't the ones hiding behind civilians and beheading civilians. We aren't targeting civilians. Our enemy blows us up and themselves up; they don't care as long as somebody dies. We as a whole are not like that. Moore's view of this behavior being widespread will turn this into another Vietnam where his ilk spit on the soldiers when they come home and call them war criminals for political (or in Moore's case financial) gain. That is definately the picture he is painting with his propaganda.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
I don't like Bush and i don't like Moore for the same reasons.
Both try to manipulate the masses by quoting facts incomplete and add some "facts" (we can't call them lies today because we can't proof that they should know it better).

Shame on both of them
You have to include Kerry. He's drunk on Moore's Kool-Aid.
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:38 PM   #28
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You know what? If it has an effect, then so be it. Just seeing the venom that is continuously spouted against a sitting president with absolutely no regard for the office is just sickening. I've vowed that for the sake of this nation, if Kerry is elected, even though I am dissappointed, I will honor the office he holds, pray for him and wish him the best. I just hope that more people, whatever the outcome, can put aside partisan emotions and unite as a nation. If I can do it under Kerry, democrats can do it under Bush. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing in a respectful way, but calling him a war-criminal, a betrayer...etc...it's just venomous rhetoric. Saying he lied because he acted on faulty information is not logical and is propaganda. Disagree on policies, but this level of personal attacks will destroy this nation by making us hate each other. Both sides are to blame - but let's be better than either when the results come back election night, whoever it is. And start over. Whoever the next president is - he is not worse than our enemies. Let's not treat him like them.
Damn, Iota...I agree 100%

As much as I don't want Kerry to win, if he does, I would repect him for the office he held. It is too bad that partisan politics cause some people to say otherwise.

I heard about FahrenHYPE. There are several reasons I didn't want to watch Moore's movie, but with a rebuttal-film such as this, I may have to watch both back-to-back.
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:27 PM   #29
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Originally posted by iota
And while what Moore shows from Iraq is disturbing, his point seems to be that people dying makes the war invalid. The sad truth is that people die in every war. We aren't the ones hiding behind civilians and beheading civilians. We aren't targeting civilians. Our enemy blows us up and themselves up; they don't care as long as somebody dies. We as a whole are not like that. Moore's view of this behavior being widespread will turn this into another Vietnam where his ilk spit on the soldiers when they come home and call them war criminals for political (or in Moore's case financial) gain. That is definately the picture he is painting with his propaganda.
But I have never seen that footage on the local news. They played stuff like that during Vietnam, which motivatived us to get out, but we never see that here. Everything is so sensitized, no coffins with flags, no dead bodies. Most of those Abu Graiab pictures never ran on the front page of a newspaper -- they were in an intellectual magazine -- The New Yorker -- that most people don't read. [but should, I love my subscription].
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:51 PM   #30
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While a lot of the movie is clever editing, you really can't deny Bush's relationship with the Bin Laden family; it's too well documented.

THAT, to me, speaks the loudest about how "legitimate" Bush is.
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