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Old 11-05-2001, 07:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Haven't you forgotten that the South seceded from the U.S. first? This was a matter of quelching separatism, quite honestly. Considering all the trouble we've had to endure with the South since, part of me wishes the North had just let the South go and languish into a confederate chaos. But the better side of me knows that everyone's lives are better--slaves were freed, indentured servants were freed, the elitist and feudal state of the South was destroyed. Even today, quite honestly, I don't know how the North and the South stay together. It seems to be that, quite often, they are ideological opposites, and it's like pulling teeth to get the two to cooperate.

But maybe I'm blowing it all out of proportion out of unrelated bitterness... Expect a retraction soon, if that's the case.

Carry on.

Melon

Well yes, Melon - the south did secede first - which was the whole point behind the Civil War (as I was pointing out). But the idea of freeing the slaves was a tactic used by the north, after the war was underway, to further undermine the economic stability of the south, to give them another arrow in the quiver to win the war.

Exactly what troubles have you had to "endure" with the south that haven't been endured elsewhere? Race riots occurred all over the US (Watts, LA, Chicago, etc.) not just in the south. A lot of the freedom fighters, black and white, were from the south. Racial minorities seem to feel pretty disenfranchised no matter where they live - it isn't limited to one side of the Mason-Dixon line.

I hope you will retract. I am from the South, and there are a lot of people like me who are fair minded thinkers with opinions just like some people in the north. There are a lot of racist bigots who live in the north, just like the south. Geography doesn't determine what type of person you are. And that's an awfully sweeping statement. I've gotten the impression from you that you hate it down here before, but I do wonder how much time you've actually spent here.

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Old 11-05-2001, 09:55 PM   #32
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Okay, let's see if I can moderate between Crzy4Bono & melon.

Crzy4Bono:
You are correct that the Civil War was faught over the broader range of states rights, BUT the main "right" of these was the continuation of the slave trade and labor system, and this issue had been boiling since before the Missouri Compromise of 1820-21. It continued to fester with the Kansas-Nebraska Act and the Compromise of 1850.

The anti-slavery movement came to political life via Northern (mainly New England) Senators and Congressmen who were coincidentally ALSO trying to convert the U.S. to an industrial economy. It was not only that the Southern delegations wanted to maintain their own agrarian system, but they ALSO wanted newly admitted states to be admitted at least on an equal basis as "slave" states and "free" states. But despite the posturing of either side in our antebellum Congress, we do not know for sure if the Northern representatives were true, moral abolitionists or if they were attempting to give their industrialization a boost. Either way, I am glad they started the process to rid us of slavery.

Also, you are correct that abolitionists were very active in the South, even prior to the War, but they were more "underground" because their goals were perceived as threatening the livelihood of a lot of Southerners. There were also Union loyalists, some who even served in the Union Army, in North Alabama and East Tennessee, just as there were Confederate regiments from Indiana and Southern Illinois, both heavy agricultural regions.

But melon:

You unfortunately rely too much on elementary school documentaries and Gene Hackman movies for your stereotypical views of the modern-day South. I have reminded you a few times in these forums that the KKK is far more active today in the Midwest and Rocky Mountain states than it is in the South, and that the few Klan rallies in Alabama and Georgia recently have been organized by grand poobahs from Pennsylvania, Indiana and MICHIGAN. Case in point: the Virginia Supreme Court recently had 2 cases challenging a state law banning cross burnings. The perpetrator and eventual challenger of the law was in fact the leader of a Pennsylvania Klan group.

I think if you walked the streets of my neighborhood, here in one of the most solidly Republican counties in the U.S. (Shelby County, Alabama), you would be very surprised at the diversity of the people here AND the friendship between the people. Have you ever spent any time here in the South?

Your statement about wishing the North had just "let the South go" and wondering how we stay together is extreme elitism. So you would have preferred the Norht just let the South go and allow slavery to continue in the C.S.A.? That's not a very good human rights concession.

~U2Alabama
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Old 11-05-2001, 11:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
You unfortunately rely too much on elementary school documentaries and Gene Hackman movies for your stereotypical views of the modern-day South.
Hmm...I wish my views made out of unrelated embitterness were from elementary videos. Half of my hometown is populated by people from two cities in Tennessee. I won't get into too many details, but some stereotypes are true, sadly. Of course, the South is probably great now. All the stereotypes went north.

Quote:
I have reminded you a few times in these forums that the KKK is far more active today in the Midwest and Rocky Mountain states than it is in the South, and that the few Klan rallies in Alabama and Georgia recently have been organized by grand poobahs from Pennsylvania, Indiana and MICHIGAN.
Yes, the Tennessee implants were instrumental in making the KKK quite active in our area during the Vietnam era. Luckily, it's not horribly active anymore where I'm at, and I think the last KKK activity happened 10 years ago back home.

And you don't have to tell me of the hickdom of Michigan. I lament it everyday.

Quote:
Case in point: the Virginia Supreme Court recently had 2 cases challenging a state law banning cross burnings. The perpetrator and eventual challenger of the law was in fact the leader of a Pennsylvania Klan group.


Thanks for reminding me. The last case in my hometown was a cross burning outside a black family's home 10 years ago.

Quote:
I think if you walked the streets of my neighborhood, here in one of the most solidly Republican counties in the U.S. (Shelby County, Alabama), you would be very surprised at the diversity of the people here AND the friendship between the people. Have you ever spent any time here in the South?
I don't doubt it. In fact, it's true. I did make my statement in bitterness; not of the South itself, but of the Southern implants in my hometown. So, in reality, it's not as much as I hate the South, as much as I hate my hometown and what it has turned into. As a result, I've turned into the antithesis of everything I think my hometown stands for. It's very amusing when I can psychoanalyze myself.[/B][/QUOTE]

Quote:
Your statement about wishing the North had just "let the South go" and wondering how we stay together is extreme elitism.
Perhaps. Even I am not immune from being slightly prejudiced, as I've explained above. I'm just one of the few who would actually admit it. Of course, rationally, prejudices are stupid, so I'm working on that. As it says, "I like individuals. It's people I hate."

I guess I'm also tired of the fact that, seemingly, all politics is catered to and determined by either Southern states, Southern politicians, or Southern PACs. I mean, even our presidents are all Southerners (or Northerners pretending to be Southerners) now.

Of course, I should be used to the fact that I'm a minority in America.

Quote:
So you would have preferred the Norht just let the South go and allow slavery to continue in the C.S.A.? That's not a very good human rights concession.
Well, if you read above, that's why I think the Civil War was best. If slavery and feudalism weren't an issue, I'd have been inclined to just let them go and see them sink or swim on their own.

Anyway, now I know I am saying this stuff in unrelated bitterness. I'm sure I'll be retracting this all tomorrow. I guess, for now, I'd be interested in seeing the reactions to what I have written in anger.

But, as I've hit a pang of reality, it's not races or people of certain geographical regions that bother me. Southerners, in themselves, do not bother me in the slightest. It's ignorance and small-mindedness that truly bothers me. Oh I'm sure people are looking at this ready to call be bigoted and small-minded now too. We all have our moments, and this is, surely, not my highest point. But I come before you as honest as I try to be, and if we are to truly make this world a better place, we need to confront who we are, what we think, and, hopefully, find out why we think the way we do. Covering it up in tight little pink bows solves nothing.

Who am I? A young, hot, smart, gay, leftist, radical Catholic intellectual who can't stand incompetance and demands too much out the society around him. If I could do everything myself, I would, but, obviously, I can't. As a result, I start sounding arrogant and cynical, depending on who I'm talking to and what day it happens to be. So, to those who dislike me today, it's just one of those days with me. It happens to the best of us. I am who I am.

Melon

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Old 11-05-2001, 11:48 PM   #34
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Maybe you could get Michigan to close its borders to Tennesseeans?
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Old 11-06-2001, 05:22 AM   #35
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Pub Crawler, I wasn't meaning to imply that is what you believe. I know you dont. It pisses me off so much people actually give a shit about someone's skin colour. History is not always something we are proud of, but to use it to fuel hatred of a group is beyond me.

Just to rave on a bit more and divert from the direction this debate has taken, I will use an example of Aboriginal Aus.

I am in a pub minding my own bisuness when an Aboriginal girl of about my age picks a fight to inform me she hates me, my people, my ancestors etc for the previous 200 years. I get "you racist white bitch". Now, to be practical for a moment, my ancestors actually have only lived in Aus for the last 30 years or so, so technichally had nothing to do with the events of the past. Being part Aboriginal, Im sure its different for her. She no doubt does descend from folks that suffered at the hands of the white settlers. Yet she, someone who was never directly affected, hates me, someone who was never there to be guilty of anything. To me, its misguided anger. I am actually very sorry for all that was done to the Aboriginal people. I know the reasons why its unfair, I know the history, I know the injustice. But how do you overcome that hate on her behalf?

This will prolly be taken out of context. But I hope it shows my point. What do you do eh.
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Old 11-06-2001, 12:05 PM   #36
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No, I understand you Angela. Thanks.

You touched on something I've been thinking about. I have known at least one black person who was pulled over by a cop only because of his skin color.

He was a nice guy, someone I worked with, and it really angered me to hear his story. Plus, I've heard that same story told many times in the news media by celebrities and everyday people, so I know it is not a rare occurence. If a black guy drives through Beverly Hills, perhaps in a nice car, hmmm, he's suddenly a suspicious character.

I really do ask myself, what if I were black? How would I like being treated like a leper some of the time? How would I feel when I noticed women pulling their purse tight to their body when seeing me walking by, or locking their car doors at the sight of me?

My empathy is only compounded by the fact that I realize that I MYSELF STEREOTYPE BLACK PEOPLE, as well as people of other races and ethnicities. If I meet a black guy who's using black slang and "dialect" (I don't know what else to call it and I don't care for the term "ebonics"), I'm probably inclined to think that guy will not understand me unless I speak "down" to his level.

I have all the usual stereotypical thoughts in my mind when it comes to people different than me. Not all the time, but those thoughts do occasionally come to the surface.

I know other people have those stereotypical thoughts, as well. My late uncle was a severe racist. A very good friend of mine, an intelligent, well read, "liberal" guy he is, recently told me that he is unfortunately finding that he "doesn't like black people." He has had incidences when walking home late at night where black men have approached him and hassled him. (He lives near a fairly rough neighborhood). I am somewhat blown away that this friend of mine feels this way. In the past he has expressed very leftist, liberal leanings.

I dated a black woman for a short period. One time, after we hadn't seen each other for several weeks, I ran into her at a social event. She sat on my lap, and I was uncomfortable with it because people (95% of the attendees were white) were seeing me with a black girl in my lap.

I could go on and on.... but the point is, I think we who are white need to think about our position in life and how (relatively) good we have it. Due to the color of our skin we have a certain amount of priveledge accorded to us!


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Old 11-06-2001, 08:04 PM   #37
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Bama -
Thanks for trying to help me out.

The war was, however, originally started over states rights. The initial issues arose because the south (hugely agricultural) was trading almost exclusively with the British, which pissed off the politicians in the north, so they enacted a lot of tarrifs and trading restrictions to try to increase north/south trade. This caused a lot of resentment and calls of decentralized government - led by South Carolina (a huge sea port state). After the war started, the north was also afraid that the British were going to come in on the side of the south so they brought in the slavery issue, since there was a huge anti-slavery movement in great britain at the time, to stop that from happening, and also to disrupt agricultural trade from the south.

Not enough space here to type the whole history of the Civil War - but I was just trying to make the point that the war was not fought over slavery. It did become a key issue, but not for the moral reasons that most people believe. (Although there were a lot of people, all over the country, who thought slave trade was wrong.)

All that being said, I of course don't agree slavery was ever a good thing. But just trying to correct a common misconception about the Civil War.

To Melon - I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with the people you've met from Tennessee. I am also from Tennessee - and I think you'd find that we see eye to eye on a lot of things... I hope you will reconsider your hasty generalization of all things southern based on these two folks you've met.

Peace to y'all. (that was a joke - the y'all thing)



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Old 11-06-2001, 09:03 PM   #38
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Why should the "y'all" thing be a joke? I use that word all the time.

I don't mean to argue, Crzy4Bono, but do you not see the significance of the slavery issue in the admission of new, predominantly agricultural states, leading up to the shots fired at Fort Sumter? The issue was so divisive in Kansas that it earned the nickname "Bleeding Kansas." I think that both the economic desires AND, to perhaps a lesser extent, abolition, were important to many of the Northern power brokers. And Britain DID assist the Confederacy with a naval blockade during the Civil War as they continued to be a major trade partner with the Southern states.

Perhaps many of you are surprised at how pro-North a conservative Southerner such as myself is, but on this issue I am 100% Unionist.

Even though I can't stand (the University of) Tennessee's football team or coach, Tennesseeans are genuinely nice people and melon doesn't have a clue in their regard.

~U2Alabama
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Old 11-06-2001, 09:46 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
I don't mean to argue, Crzy4Bono
Of course you do...

Quote:
Even though I can't stand (the University of) Tennessee's football team or coach, Tennesseeans are genuinely nice people and melon doesn't have a clue in their regard.
Why thank you Bama. I even cheered for your team this past weekend.




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Old 11-06-2001, 10:39 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
I even cheered for your team this past weekend.
Perhaps that is why LSU won.
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Old 11-07-2001, 03:40 AM   #41
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Pub, you are quite strong to admit you may judge too quickly. I think everyone does. i know i do, not only with people's ethnicity, but many things. I see a young woman pushing a pram with 3 kids around her, I immediately assume shes unemployed, on a pension and has her kids to all different fathers. Or a large scary looking man covered with tat, I think hes either a truck driver or on day release (from jail).

ONe time actually I was proved very wrong, and Im glad. I was in that same pub which happens to be my favourite but not really nearby to where i live so when I go, its abig and serious night out. My friends and I were all playing pool and a Maori girl who was built like one of the all blacks came and put money on the table. After the game we all got a bit nervous and I said you take the table, we dont need to play anymore. She gave me a look and said nah, come on it will be fun. All her friends were huge. Still not sure we played and lost cos I really was a bit wary, but they all turned out to be the nicest girls ever. Its not that I dont like Kiwis at all, cos they actually crack me up like you wouldnt believe but in this instance they fit the steroetype so well I couldnt get past it at first. Its such a shame and simply because skin, race or nationality means squat. I wonder how many opportunities we miss when we let a marrow minded attitude rule. I really couldnt give a damn about skin colour, before I was born my parents adopted a 'black' baby. And although I wouldn't have it any other way, my sister is the greatest person alive. I think because of her I dont notice colour. But sterotypes is another matter. Whenever my dad complains about anything I immediately call him a whinging pom. Even though its not offensive, I wonder if through my blase attitude I perhaps dont have total control over it. Black, white, whatever, we're all guilty in some way I reckon.
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