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Old 11-02-2001, 03:52 AM   #16
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...and an imbalance of power among racial and/or ethnic groups seems to foster racial inequalities.

That's all I'm sayin'.
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Old 11-02-2001, 06:27 AM   #17
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It does...we've got our own 'dirty laundry' regarding indigenous people in australia i assure you...
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon:
Slavery is probably as old as man itself, as all governments were essentially autocratic, whether it be at the tribal level or at an imperial level. Hence, when you have all the power, it's much easier to force your subjects to do things they don't want to. What if you don't have enough subjects? You conquer your enemies and add them to your "work force." This was obviously the preferred way of doing things in everywhere from ancient Egypt to the Roman Empire to the more sophisticated form of slavery, feudalism.

Obviously, now, the point of contention here is likely the African slave trade of the 1600s to the 1800s. This was imported to the U.S. by the Dutch--I guess you can say, "white people." But it's not a simple case of the Dutch traders stealing people in Africa. Slavery in Africa was extremely common, as warring tribes would often conquer their enemies, only to enslave them. To think that Africa was immune to this practice is an incredible fallacy. So, quite often, the Dutch traders would come in to these African empires and trade goods for slaves. The African imperial leaders, seeing an opportunity for wealth, consented; hence, in many instances, these corrupt empires sold their own people away. To be fair, though, the Dutch often did kidnap Africans in addition to their "legally" traded slaves.

I think I've made my point clear here, but I'll make a quick synopsis:

1) labelling people by their race is stupid, because it wasn't "white people" who brought in the African slave trade, it was the Dutch, or, better specifically, corrupt Dutch businessmen using the Bible as justification for their actions (remember how I said the Bible supported slavery?).

2) slavery was not invented by white people, and surely was not used exclusively by white people, as it was used in Asian, Middle Eastern, and even African cultures as a convenient way to take out enemies and increase their workforce.

3) white people have been enslaved as well, as the Romans often enslaved the European "barbarians" as well, not to mention the sophisticated form of slavery, feudalism, which lasted well over 1000 years and wasn't even abolished in Russia until around the 1850s.

4) nothing is as simple as it seems, and that does include slavery.

Any comments?

Melon

Yes.

It's true that human history is full of battles and conflicts-and in those conflicts winners always took vengeance on losers (using them for slavery, burning down their homes etc...).

Interesting thought: feudalism as a form of slavery? I guess that's one way of looking at it, though when i think of "slavery" usually black people's and Romans's slavery come to mind.

1) Well Dutch people are white, aren't they?

Another thing i was getting at was that the white race has been expanding more than other races. (going into Americas, colonizing Africa-i think in some parts of N. Africa French language is still used quite often)
While doing that, it was very aggresive towards the native people over there, winning eventually with the use of its higher development and/or pressuring people to Christian faith.

This has nothing to do with slavery, but it does have to do with white racism:
let's not forget that Germans were using "arian race is supreme" propaganda to justify what they did to Jews and others, "who had to make place for the supreme race".

I think it's ironic that, of all the races, white people (white racists), claim to be above the rest.

Like i said, it was all about coincidence and luck. No way are whites automatically better than other races. All races are equal: there are good and bad people to be found any- and everywhere in the world.
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:31 AM   #19
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[This message has been edited by Johnny Swallow (edited 11-02-2001).]
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:
1) Well Dutch people are white, aren't they?
No.

I'm pink and rosy

Quote:
Interesting thought: feudalism as a form of slavery? I guess that's one way of looking at it, though when i think of "slavery" usually black people's and Romans's slavery come to mind.
I think I agree with the thought of feudalism as slavery. You mentioned what comes first to your mind when talking about slavery and I don't think you're the only one thinking like that. But like Melon said, slavery is unfortunately more widespread and older than that.


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Old 11-02-2001, 10:44 AM   #21
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No, my comments were in rebuttal to U2girl. As for that ignorant son-of-a-bitch Rep. Davis, I hope he is ripped to shreds. "God's Order Affirmed in Love." PLEASE! Apparently, that "order" is in white supremacy to him. May all these so-called "Christians" (who really don't know the first thing about true Christianity) rot in hell. What's sad is that these so-called "Christians" somehow find their way into government, whether it be in the legislatures or the presidency or in influencing the policies of both, and the people are forced to suffer at the hands of these small-minded, reactionary extremists. And who said our politicians were smart? Any idiot can run our nation, as long as they have the money and the ad campaign to manipulate others.

Melon

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Old 11-02-2001, 10:47 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler:
If we're talking about America and we're talking about today, i.e. 2001, then we've got to talk about the fact that whites still hold the balance of power in this country.
That is most certainly a separate issue that I wasn't referring to. And let's get beyond race here. Who holds the balance of power? Wealthy, conservative, "Christian" white men, not "white people."

Comments?

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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Old 11-02-2001, 11:29 AM   #23
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Geez, I go to post and there's like a thousand little different face icons to use.. Anywayz, I do think it is extremely important to note that Black Freedmen had slaves of their own, as then it is more of a signal of the times than whites only racists.. Yah, It sucks, that was a bitch of a situation for those involved, but .. and I think I'm not alone in this one.. I think racism is probably equal now.. in present times, between blacks and whites.. There is soo omuch black racism towards whites that it almost makes me sick.. I don't judge anyone on the basis of their skin color, but there are white people who still do, and there are blacks who will talk endless shit, beat up, or just plain 'hate' on whites.. I mean, my little brother and I went to a Cash Money and DMX concert (Rappers).. and the First thing the DJ said was .. 'To All you White Folk... Get the Fuck Out OF Here'.. and everyone lifted the middle finger.. And of course, the rebuttal by blacks is that they're just getting even.. But grow up.. the shit happened, get over it.. we (white americans) on the whole are going to extreme lengghts to just treat people equal.. Though Affirmative Action is teh Most Racist Thing to come out of latest 20th century... And blacks just have to reach back to us (white americans)... Ok.. That probably wasn't right with the thread.. but just reading things like.. WHITE MEN + BURNING CROSSES = KKK of AmeriKKKa.. but let's go MALCOM X + Black Panthers = Kill Whitey.. I mean.. Yah, if we're going to say 'I HATE WHITE RACISTS'.. I think we all have a right to say I HATe BLACK RACISTS .. That's why I don't buy Lauren Hill.. But why I love Dr. Dre and his crew.. His latest tour.. He always spoke of how he wanted to make a show for blacks, whites, asians.. everyone.. Anyways.. I've got to go .. ND Football Irish GUard calls...
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Old 11-02-2001, 12:18 PM   #24
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Questions, anyone?
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Old 11-03-2001, 05:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
I'm just happy to know my ancestors are all female.
Are you related to the woman with the beard ?



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Old 11-03-2001, 10:08 AM   #26
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That's my mother you're talkin' about sucka!!
Treat her right fool or I'll throw you helluvva far!!

Damn, ma van's fast!!!
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Old 11-03-2001, 10:44 AM   #27
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It saddens me when people say racism is a white issue. Its specific to the people that perpetrate it.
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Old 11-03-2001, 01:27 PM   #28
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Please don't count me among those who say racism is "only a white issue."

I realize we're all the same, regardless of race or ethnicity, and we are all capable of perpetrating hatred. We are also all capable of being quite benevolent.

I just think it's important to acknowledge the fact that, with respect to racial injustice in America, one can argue all day and night that racism goes both ways, but that argument fails because whites hold most of the power in this great country.

Here's another way of stating it: Racism does indeed go both ways. However, the fact that it goes both ways is a moot point because the racist behavior perpetrated by those in power has a far more significant impact than any racist behavior being demonstrated by those "out" of power. I.e., the little guy gets screwed.


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Old 11-05-2001, 04:42 PM   #29
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Another point -
The Civil War was not fought over slavery. It was, in fact, fought over states rights. Slavery was the "media" issue, which came up to the forefront after Lincoln used it in the Emancipation Proclaimation, but in fact that was designed to disrupt the economic stability of the south (an agricultural economy heavily dependent on cheap manual labor) rather than any great desire on the part of the north to free the slaves (other than the abolitionists, who actually were throughout the US at the time).

Carry on.

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Old 11-05-2001, 06:13 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
but in fact that was designed to disrupt the economic stability of the south
Haven't you forgotten that the South seceded from the U.S. first? This was a matter of quelching separatism, quite honestly. Considering all the trouble we've had to endure with the South since, part of me wishes the North had just let the South go and languish into a confederate chaos. But the better side of me knows that everyone's lives are better--slaves were freed, indentured servants were freed, the elitist and feudal state of the South was destroyed. Even today, quite honestly, I don't know how the North and the South stay together. It seems to be that, quite often, they are ideological opposites, and it's like pulling teeth to get the two to cooperate.

But maybe I'm blowing it all out of proportion out of unrelated bitterness... Expect a retraction soon, if that's the case.

Carry on.

Melon

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"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time
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