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Old 12-13-2001, 08:33 PM   #31
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Once again, Sula, I ponder the same question.

And also: who do y'all think did it? Bozo the Clown? I've seen a few comments here and there in these threads that "we/Ashcraft/Bush/U.S. military/media don't know" if OBL, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and all of the other humanitarian groups actually did it. So I am curious as to who would be on your suspect lists?

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Old 12-13-2001, 09:48 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Holy shit.. how can you say that.?.. I think I just booted onto my computer keyboard, That's about as sick as teh Doonsbury Comic that Said the exact same thing.. Apparently you didn't come up with this sort of statement yourself... thousands of americans died at the hands of a merciless extremist.. Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this.. and it's just sick of you to make such a statement.
Your sarcasm is interesting, and I've learned it finally.

As for "Doonesbury," I never saw that particular strip that dealt with that, so it is a coincidence, but a lot of people have questioned it, not just me.

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Old 12-14-2001, 03:51 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Originally posted by Hans Moleman:
You have completely deflected my point. No, Dubya did not stage this war, but he is exploiting it to further his own agenda he would not likely get through otherwise.

Bush isn't exploiting anything for a little 'personal' gain.. That would be something clinton or gore would have done.. Bush just wants justice, he wants an end to this...[/B]
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

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Old 12-14-2001, 10:09 AM   #34
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Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Trashing the Constitution at every possible oppertunity is not seeking "justice". And it is not "sick" to make vailid criticsm about the sorry performance of the U.S government in response to this tragedy.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-13-2001).] 'Sorry Performance'?????!?!!?! Where are you getting your news from?.. Wev'e got the best people in the world running this war.. They're intelligent, they're truthful and honest, and they care.. They are doing what they think is right, and It's about time that I can say that about the us president and his crew.. god knows for the past eight years we've been ruled by polls

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 12-13-2001).]
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Old 12-14-2001, 10:11 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Popmartijn:
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

Marty


He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that.. and look, Russia has no problems with it.. Cuz it's for china and n. korea anyways...

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Old 12-14-2001, 11:05 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
I don't know. Cancelling the ABM treaty almost confirms the view as posted by Melon. This missile defense shield was on the wishlist of the Republicans for a long time. Now Bush is president they finally have it 'in light of the recent events' (or something like that, I don't know exactly the quote Bush used). There is a lot of opposition against this shield, but Bush used the terrorist attacks to push it through.

Just my opinion,

Marty


He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that..

Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.

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Old 12-14-2001, 11:07 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Lemonite:
He was going to bounce from that treaty to begin with.. That's nothing new.. HE was going to do it back when he was campaigning for president..did you not pick up on that..
If you read my post well you'll see I also mention that. But Bush is now using Sep. 11 as an excuse to push it through, despite all the concern about the missile shield (that also existed before Sep. 11).

Here is an excerpt from yesterday's Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/daily/13/bush_treaty.htm

Quote:
Bush, who campaigned last year on building the kind of missile defense shield banned by the treaty, said the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks made his cause more urgent.

"Today, the events of Sept. 11 made all too clear the greatest threats to both our countries come not from each other or other big powers in the world but from terrorist attacks who strike without warning or rogue states who seek weapons of mass destruction," Bush said.
So you see that he is using those events as an excuse to pursue his personal agenda.

Quote:
and look, Russia has no problems with it.. Cuz it's for china and n. korea anyways...
Russia does have problems with it, as do many other US-friendly countries (European Union, for example). They only positive thing they said is that Bush's action will not undermine the US-Russian relationship. But Russia might does issue a warning that it is a bad move and that it might take counter actions.

From the same Boston Globe article:
Quote:
"President Putin and I have also agreed that my decision to withdraw from the treaty will not in any way undermine our new relationship or Russian security," Bush said.

...

Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov said the decision was regrettable because it undermined global strategic balances -- but he was not concerned about Russia's security.

...

Putin cautioned last winter that jettisoning the treaty could lead to the unraveling of three decades of arms control accords. China has warned a new arms race could ensue.

...

The Bush administration intends to cooperate with Russia at least to the extent of informing Moscow of steps being taken to advance the missile-shield program.

That's not likely to stop Russia from taking retaliatory steps. A senior Russian lawmaker predicted Russia will pull out of the Start I and Start II arms reduction treaties.

"We believe that offensive and defensive tools of nuclear deterrence must be linked," said Dmitry Rogozin, chairman of the Duma's international affairs committee, according to Interfax news agency.

Such a spiral of withdrawals would be dangerous -- and predictable, said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

"Unilateral withdrawal will likely lead to an action-reaction cycle in offensive and defensive technologies, including countermeasures," he said. "That kind of arms race would not make us more secure."
Anyway, I think I'll stop now, before this thread becomes like the ABM-thread as it more belongs over there.

Marty

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[This message has been edited by Popmartijn (edited 12-14-2001).]
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Old 12-14-2001, 11:08 AM   #38
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.
Yes, but this way he might get less resistance from the rest of the world. This is so calculated! He has smart advisors. Then again, the rest of the world isn't too stupid either, and not very many people outside of the US trust George W. There'll be more questions coming.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 12-14-2001).]
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Old 12-14-2001, 02:16 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
Anyway, I think I'll stop now, before this thread becomes like the ABM-thread as it more belongs over there.

Marty

Taken off the drudgereport...

BUSH AND PUTIN MAKE DEAL
GENERAL Colin Powell has said that yesterday's American withdrawal from the 1972 anti-ballistic missile treaty was "orchestrated" with Russia in an act of co-operation that would previously have been unthinkable.

He said...powell: "For those who have predicted catastrophe, they are going to find out that an arms race does not break out between the US and Russia. In fact, at the same time Russia heard our notice of withdrawal they agreed to cut their weapons to our level."

The Bush administration believes that a missile defence system will defend both America and Russia against the threat of nuclear attack from "rogue" states.

Russia is warming up to the idea.. Most of the opposition just comes because these other countries aren't able to create a missle defense shield... But this is evidence that they have far fewer problems with everything than they initialy did..

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Old 12-14-2001, 02:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klodomir:
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Exactly. Have you people forgotten that he was gonna do it anyway? And as far as "pushing it through", there is no nedd to "push it through", because it is the president's power and his alone.
Yes, but this way he might get less resistance from the rest of the world. This is so calculated! He has smart advisors. Then again, the rest of the world isn't too stupid either, and not very many people outside of the US trust George W. There'll be more questions coming.

[This message has been edited by Klodomir (edited 12-14-2001).]

Ok, klodo.. i'm not sure where you're from.. but now that you've learned that Bush was pushing for this missle defense way back over a year ago.. If you are an american, I would hope that you would see that there is a need for this, So what if the current situation helps out bush's agenda... Apparently, the restof the country is starting to see BUsh's idea.. if it were still such a RAGINGLY RADICAL idea.. then people would oppose it still, it's jst that the american people are starting to see how necessary it was, the rest of teh world are starting to see it is necessary, and people world wide are now giving credit for the forsight of bush and chaney as they called over a year ago.. ahead of the 'popular craze' if you wish.. i won't get into a parallel ofu2's album pop.. another ahead of the time idea.. But again, i've said it before, to try and make a statement that Bush is capitolizing on the Deaths of thousand americans, for his sole intrinsic giddynesss of 'putting thruogh his agenda' is sick and twisted, He is using the situation as a more immediate warning to the fact that there is now a more desperate need for this missle shield to be developed.. If he is using the memorial of thousandsof americans to get an already ignorant public to realize just how evil these people are, and just how destructive these people are, that any extra motions of defense are necessary, so as to stop thousands more americans from dying... Klodomir.. From all your statements, I would assume that you are Praying for a missile to land right in your beer mug as you type of How unprofessional it is for Bush to use a tragedy for the sole intrinsic purpose of him feeling successful.. Bush is a man of character, he cares for his people.. I think it's a somewhat jaded and really a mootless pointed argument that BUsh wants things just cuz he wants to be signing bills ... He doesn't work that way, Maybe he's trying to save your life.. Whether you're an american or not...
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Old 12-14-2001, 02:47 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:

Ok, klodo.. i'm not sure where you're from.. but now that you've learned that Bush was pushing for this missle defense way back over a year ago.. If you are an american, I would hope that you would see that there is a need for this, So what if the current situation helps out bush's agenda... Apparently, the restof the country is starting to see BUsh's idea.. if it were still such a RAGINGLY RADICAL idea.. then people would oppose it still, it's jst that the american people are starting to see how necessary it was, the rest of teh world are starting to see it is necessary, and people world wide are now giving credit for the forsight of bush and chaney as they called over a year ago.. ahead of the 'popular craze' if you wish.. i won't get into a parallel ofu2's album pop.. another ahead of the time idea.. But again, i've said it before, to try and make a statement that Bush is capitolizing on the Deaths of thousand americans, for his sole intrinsic giddynesss of 'putting thruogh his agenda' is sick and twisted, He is using the situation as a more immediate warning to the fact that there is now a more desperate need for this missle shield to be developed.. If he is using the memorial of thousandsof americans to get an already ignorant public to realize just how evil these people are, and just how destructive these people are, that any extra motions of defense are necessary, so as to stop thousands more americans from dying... Klodomir.. From all your statements, I would assume that you are Praying for a missile to land right in your beer mug as you type of How unprofessional it is for Bush to use a tragedy for the sole intrinsic purpose of him feeling successful.. Bush is a man of character, he cares for his people.. I think it's a somewhat jaded and really a mootless pointed argument that BUsh wants things just cuz he wants to be signing bills ... He doesn't work that way, Maybe he's trying to save your life.. Whether you're an american or not...
Good points, Lemonite.

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Old 12-15-2001, 01:21 AM   #42
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My objection to our withdrawal from the ABM treaty so as to pursue a missile defense shield is simple: It's not worth it because I don't believe we can build a workable Star Wars system. My primary concern is that whatever system we build (undoubtedly at a horrendous financial cost) the Chinese, The North Koreans, The Indians, The Pakistanis, The Russians etc will all build attack systems that can penetrate our defense. In order to do so they may well have to build their nuclear arsenals by a considerable amount. Is a defense shield that likely won't work worth the creation of thousands of more nuclear warheads? Is it worth the near inconcievable financial expenditure? I don't think so.

And can we discuss this without some of the silly partisanship seen in this thread? Of course any politician given the approval ratings Bush currently possesses will try to use them to his benefit. Bush has and Clinton certainly would have had he had the opportunity. Neither Bush nor Clinton are saints; they're politicians.

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Old 12-17-2001, 09:54 PM   #43
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Asscroft is just Jerry Fallwell's puppet. How he ever got confirmation for that job is a good story.
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