JFK assasination - 42nd anniversary

[Harry Vest]

One of my earliest memories is the day JFK was shot - I was three years old (as was Bono) and I remember it vividly. My mother was walking me to the corner drug store and we came across a large group of men and women - there was a paperboy selling newspapers ("extra" "extra") - the strange thing, and the thing that has stuck with me all my life - they were all crying, the men and the women...and here's the clincher...this was in Winnipeg, CANADA!!!!
That was what a major event the assasination of John F. Kennedy was. This was much more than the murder of one individual - like 911 there are so many unanswered questions. It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lee Harvey Oswald was NOT a "lone gunman", that there was a "policeman" and a "railway worker" spotted by several eyewitnesses lurking in the grassy knoll, that Jack Ruby "despised the Kennedy's" yet shot the guy who shot the guy he hated(makes absolutely no sense) - not to mention the dozens of other suspicious circumstances that are not conjecture but FACT. In conclusion it is not hard to at least be suspicious that some of the very same individuals responsible for the death of JFK were in some way involved in 911. Has there been some "masterplan" in effect since 1963???
Look...
1963 - JFK killed, Johnson assumes command, Vietnam begins to escalate
1968 - Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy assaainated (both under suspicious circumstances)
1968 - Nixon elected, Vietnam out of control
1972 - Nixon re-elected, Vietnam out of control
1973 - Watergate begins (Nixon was supposed to ride out his term but then this happens)
1974 Nixon resigns, Ford becomes President
1976 Carter runs and wins (if it wasn't for Watergate this probably would not have happened)
1978 - The Iran hostage crisis begins
1980 - John Lennon killed
1980 - Ronald Wilson Regan wins the Presidency
1980 - Former CIA director George HW Bush meets with Iranian officials and secures the release of the hostages (Arms for Hostages) - sets the date for the EXACT second that Ronald Regan is inaugerated.
1981 - Attempted assasination of Ronald Regan - by John Hinkley, son of George and Barbara Bush's good friends The Hinkley's!!!
1988 - George HW Bush elected President
1991 - Gulf war
1992 - Here's where it gets interesting...Bush was supposed to win a second term but because of Ross Perot (Perot, as an independent candidate won 19 million votes, the majority taken from potential Bush supporters) Bill Clinton wins instead.
1990's - The Republican elite try everything in thier power short of assasination to get rid of Bill Clinton - one has to wonder why they never had him killed???
2000 - George W. Bush is given the election by the US Supreme Court - run by a majority of George HW's friends
2001 - 911 happens - too visually spectacular to be the work of just less than 20 arab men. Too many questions. Too many suspicious circumstances.
2001 - Patriot act
2001 - 18 of the worlds top microbiologists die in mysterious circumstances
2002 - Patriot act
2002 - "SARS" scare begins
2003 Iraq war
2004 George W Bush "wins" the election again despite all odds
2005 Talk of worldwide "Asian Bird Flu Pandemic" becomes daily news on all media. You've got to wonder...really.
Note: Sorry for the lack of details but I was just going on a bit of a rant about a pattern I've seen for decades. There is much more to this than what I wrote, much more. Do the research yourself. Don't beleive me or disbeleive me until you've checked out any subject for yourself. Sorry for the long rant - I get like this sometimes.

 

[A_Wanderer]

VRWC!

I really like some of the (counter)logical contortions involved.

 

[yolland]

My earliest political memory is seeing poor Gerry Ford (not that I really understood who he was) tumble arse-over-tit down the steps of that airplane on national television. Didn't exactly lay the best foundation for a reverential regard for politics as a high calling...

 

[A_Wanderer]

The problem is that people build up elaborate theories of disconnected strings without evidence. If there is some sort of secret cabal with a "master-plan" what evidence is there for their existence, do people start taking the absence of evidence as proof of existence.

Once you start taking "facts" without evidence or ones that have been subsequently contradicted and building a case on the basis of speculation you enter dangerous territory where the normal rules of logic no longer apply.

The concept of an all powerful cabal that runs/influences the world by making all the bad things happen is not falsifiable. If there is evidence that Oswald is not a simple lone nut then it supports this "theory", if the evidence says that he did it then he was framed or was working for them and was silenced.

Skepticism is not about taking the official story hook-line-sinker. It is about questioning the evidence that supports them and looking at the most probable and likely explaination. It also is not mutually exclusive; just because there were elements of the initial investigation that was defficient does not by definition infer nefarious intent of a conspiratorial nature.

Tying independent events such as SARS, Iran Contra and John Lennons assassination into this web only decreases its plausibility. Now it may well be possible (in that anything within the laws of physics is possible) that Kennedy was killed over the policy towards Vietnam (the NSAMs that are touted 263? are used to support this contention), but without enough evidence that is only speculation. And the numerous dead ends that are pulled up, the umbrella man, the well manicured bums, the signal cop. In searching for the tenuous evidence that exonorates Oswald people can overlook the evidence that points to him, and when presented with that evidence they may show cognitive dissonance and just reject the evidence as fabrication that only supports their contention.

For the record I was a fan of conspiracy theories and read a lot of stuff about it since I was 11/12 and still keep an eye on the various conspiracy theories buzzing around the net, I am interested to hear what about 9/11 you find unanswered, I have seen a lot of sites that put up the theory of internal detonation citing the collapse of tower 7 as an example. I sugest that you take the time and read through the popular mechanics article that meticulously debunks these claims. Taking the time to look into the claims of conspiracy theories and finding independent sources to test there veracity is the only way to make sure that you are not taken advantage of.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

 

[Dreadsox]

My favorite yearl thread...Will be back later.

 

[melon]

My earliest political memory is seeing poor Gerry Ford (not that I really understood who he was) tumble arse-over-tit down the steps of that airplane on national television. Didn't exactly lay the best foundation for a reverential regard for politics as a high calling...

Mine was the Iran-Contra hearings being broadcast on every goddamn TV station and me hating every minute of it.

Indeed, not exactly the best foundation...heh.

Melon

 

[melon]

Has there been some "masterplan" in effect since 1963???

Melon

 

[UberBeaver]

Someone once described to me the day Kennedy was shot as "the day the dream died". I always remembered that.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

I'm not sure if I am suppose to laugh or cry at that list...I think I shall laugh. Seriously, John Lennon's death a part of this conspiracy? Don't forget, ALdous Huxley and CS Lewis also died the same day as JFK-wonder what the Illuminati/Rothschild/freemason/GOP/Skulls/ cabal had to do with that?

 

[AvsGirl41]

My dad, who is one of the staunchest Republicans you'll ever meet, firmly believes Kennedy was killed by someone other than Lee Harvey Oswald.

He took me to the Dallas museum--I have to say, they spent so much time explaining away the conspiracy that it made me more convinced there was. And why don't they let you stand where Oswald shot from...is it because, as my dad and my ex-Vietnam vet professor say, it's impossible to make the shot?

 

[Angela Harlem]

Foxtel had a forensic type of show on once on his death. I got so caught up in the graphic recreation the makers created a computer programme to help build, that I've forgotten what they eventually decided. I believe it was that Oswald didn't do it. Or something along the lines of Oswald not being the fatal shooter as the bullet travelled at a tangent not in line with his position in the car and Oswald's viewpoint, etc etc etc. It was really interesting, despite me now having a foggy memory of it.

 

[Antilarry]

we've all heard the joke about how if you add up all the conspiracy theories and book accounts over the years, there would have been 40 or 50 people on the grassy knoll. So I don't know.

I'm willing to bet it wasn't a 'lone nut' though.

According the Onion, the Warren Commission shot Kennedy.

 

[the iron horse]

*elevation*

 

[hiphop]

Until the day the American public does not force its secret service to make all the classified documents regarding JFKs death public, there is absolutely no sense in speculating about all that.

Its not exactly a big conspiracy when a computer program fixes who´s gonna be the next President. It is open manipulation. As long as the American public buys it..

 

[phanan]

I always liked Oliver Stone's JFK.

 

[Dreadsox]

Until the day the American public does not force its secret service to make all the classified documents regarding JFKs death public, there is absolutely no sense in speculating about all that.

I am curious about what documents you are referring too.

The Secret Service has released much of it's stuff. The driver of Kennedy's vehicle violated protocol by slowing down to almost 5 MPH after the first shot, when protocol calls for him to step on it.

The Secret Service has not explained to my satisfaction WHY the windshield was replaced in the vehicle. If the windshield was not hit with a bullet from the front, why the big secrecy surrounding the windshield? Apparently there may have been a shooter in the storm drain under the bridge?

But the CIA and the FBI have many more documents to be explained.

 

[Dreadsox]

I always liked Oliver Stone's JFK.

Stone blended too many theories into the movie. He ignores Garrison's connections to the MOB. Garrison hit on some of the main players in my opinion, David Ferrie in particular.

After the Stone movie critics argued that there was never any evidence of a David Ferrie/Lee Oswald connection. After the movie a picture turned up and indeed Oswald and Ferrie were in the Civil Air Patrol together.

Ferrie worked for the CIA and the Mob on many projects, Bay of Pigs ect.

Given the mob hit on Oswald ala Ruby, my gut tells me that this was a Mob assasination. The problem is, that the mob and the CIA were working together on trying to get rid of Castro, that the lines are blended together giving rise to may conspiracies Mob VS. CIA. The reality is they were working together.

My predictions are that years from now it will be revealed that Gearge HW Bush was one of the main CIA guys who organized the Bay of Pigs. The Secret Code name for the Operation based on the materials I have read at the Kennedy Library was Zapata (Name of Bush's Oil Company). Two of the boats used to send the Cuban's into Cuba were named Barbara and Houston. Not enough to state conclusively, but enough to raise an eyebrow.

Many of the men who worked on the Bay of Pigs were arrested in the Watergate break ins, and one was involved in Iran Contra. Nixon repeatedly refers to the "Bay of Pigs" thing blowing up to his staff. I believe it is ALL related.

And now my wife is rolling here eyes begging me to not spiral into this topic. I have to go. I can continue some other time.

George de Mohrenschildt, a man interviewed by the Warren Commision who was supposed to be interviewed by the 1978 House Committee on Assasinations mysteriously died days before he was supposed to testify. He was friends with both Oswald and George HW Bush. His true story has yet to come out.

I truly believe that Lee was in some way a member of the intelligence community. I believe that he was also a nut job. Nutty enough to have been set up to look like he did it alone. Many people do not realize that before he tried to kill Kennedy he tried to kill General Walker six months earlier, but failed adding to the nuttiness of Lee. However, you cannot explain the Ruby hit away. Leading me to a mob hit.

Interesting timeline

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald.htm

 

[A_Wanderer]

Ah, the White Russians

 

[phanan]

Stone blended too many theories into the movie. He ignores Garrison's connections to the MOB. Garrison hit on some of the main players in my opinion, David Ferrie in particular.

Oh, I agree. I wish he had just stayed true to Garrison's theory.

But it was still entertaining nonetheless.

 

[hiphop]

I am curious about what documents you are referring too.

f.e. details about the obduction of JFK by Humes. What happened on the flight to Bethesda etc.; the time in the hospital in Dallas was described by the Doctors (who had severe problems with Secret Service agents) but from that point there are no documents as far as I know

 

[hiphop]

Stone blended too many theories into the movie. He ignores Garrison's connections to the MOB. Garrison hit on some of the main players in my opinion, David Ferrie in particular.

Garrison explains Ferries role but in his book he lays out why he thinks the mob (or the exile Cubans for that matter) is not responsible.

 

[Dreadsox]

Garrison explains Ferries role but in his book he lays out why he thinks the mob (or the exile Cubans for that matter) is not responsible.

Then explain Jack Ruby? Garrison and I disagree...and he would lay out why the mob was not responsible because, shocker, he was also on the payroll of Carlos Marcello.

 

[hiphop]

Then explain Jack Ruby? Garrison and I disagree...and he would lay out why the mob was not responsible because, shocker, he was also on the payroll of Carlos Marcello.

Me, explain Ruby? I got no clue.

Its always important to look at the background. Why would the mob want to murder Kennedy, and isn´t an American President a shoesize too big. The mafia does not have the power to rearrange things in the way they were rearranged after Kennedy´s death. Could it be that Ruby had a gangster background to cover up his secret service operations.

I don´t buy the mob theory. Conservative hardliners had more reason to be interested in Kennedy´s death. Coup d´etat.

 

[Dreadsox]

The Mob and the CIA were intertwined. They were both working to remove Castro. Robert Kennedy had the New Orleans Mob boss deported illegally (See Mafia Kingfish)and the operations shut down. They shut down the military support for the Bay of Pigs.

Ruby was mob. Period. Garrison would not have pointed the finger at the mob. Interstingly I still need to read his book.

As for the "Cubans". Frank Sturgis, E Howard Hunt, Felix Rodriguez, all involved in the Bay of Pigs, and all involved in Watergate. One involved in Iran Contra. If Bush ran the Bay of Pigs operation as I believe, he would have been very pissed off at its failure and lack of support from Kennedy.

If these players were connected to Marcello through Bannister (FORMER FBI and Ferrie) both with conncections to Marcello, both with connections to the CIA, isn't it remotely possible that both the mob and the CIA overlaps at the time have caused confusion for peope trying to investigate the assasination?

 

[hiphop]

yeah .. haven´t read the book for some time but Garrison kinda made his point. Talks a whole lot about Bannister and the location of his bureau where Oswald went etc.

Remotely possible for sure when we acknowledge that everything about JFKs death is speculation.

 

[Harry Vest]

"Dreadsox" has a great point about George HW Bush. Apparently he was in Dallas the day Kennedy was shot - all that is in the memo is "CIA agent George Bush" - Bush has denied it was him and even the CIA has said it was another agent whose name was George Bush...I say hogwash - these people LIE for a living. Given what's happened since JFK's death I have every reason to suspect George HW Bush as one of the major conspirators in the assasination of JFK!!!

 

[theblazer]

I drive home down that same lane in Dallas every weekday. No big whoop. Not even that many people there for the 42nd.

 

[Dreadsox]

"Dreadsox" has a great point about George HW Bush. Apparently he was in Dallas the day Kennedy was shot - all that is in the memo is "CIA agent George Bush" - Bush has denied it was him and even the CIA has said it was another agent whose name was George Bush...I say hogwash - these people LIE for a living. Given what's happened since JFK's death I have every reason to suspect George HW Bush as one of the major conspirators in the assasination of JFK!!!

I think it was his people. I am not certain it was on his orders.

There were plenty of other people who were in Dallas on that same day. Richard Nixon.

The mayor of Dallas, was related to the General in charge of the air support that never happened durinmg the Bay of Pigs.

You can go crazy thinking that because so and so was in the area it must be him.

Bush was a Texas politician. There are many reasons he would have been in Dallas.

The exact memo you are reffering to says that Bush was briefed on the Cuban communities reaction, Bush had been the handler of many Cubans in the southern region. It does not prove a governement conspiracy, but does indicate he was a member of an organization long before he has admitted belonging to it.

 

[mumbler]

JFK

Watch JFK movie-Oliver Stone- it will send chills down your spine! The History Channel just had a special on JFK and reports that more people believe the movie to be the truth than any government report.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: JFK

Watch JFK movie-Oliver Stone- it will send chills down your spine! The History Channel just had a special on JFK and reports that more people believe the movie to be the truth than any government report.

This too me is a shame that they find it to be the truth. Stone like any artist took liberties.

It is a good starting point.