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Old 02-19-2007, 02:52 PM   #1
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"It's time to be honest about black crime"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../19/do1901.xml

"The sub-culture to which Mr Blair alludes in his coded way is that of black delinquency (the mores of which have drawn in quite a few non-black participants).

That neither he nor Mr Cameron will say precisely this (although they both go so far as to refer to the influence of rap music) is central to our failure to cope with it.

Just as using the word "black" in this context is to lay oneself open to the smear of racism, any perceptible targeting of black youths for particular attention by the police lays officers open to career-ending disciplinary procedures.

The "sus" laws, which allowed officers to stop and search people on suspicion of carrying weapons or drugs, were scrapped because they were said to be a form of racial harassment.

That was the beginning of what became a systematic programme of denial, the ultimate consequence of which was that blameless black people were left unprotected in effectively unpoliced neighbourhoods, and that many black mothers were left to grieve for their sons."



It is interesting to note the difference in language between US and European commentators talking about the issue of the disproportionate involvement of young black males in violent crime - even right wing American commentators rarely use the word 'black' any more.
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Old 02-19-2007, 03:23 PM   #2
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There is no such thing as "black" crime.

Except in the one's mind.


Skin color, (melanin) does not commit crime. Individuals commit crime.



But of course if you would like to pull over Denzil Washington for driving through Beverly Hills, because a black man driving a $300,000 car looks suspicious, than be my guest.

And of course this thinking is proper when we wanted to put Japanese Americans in internment camps during WW2.


It is always a member of the "in" group that sees this,
as just a reasonable thing to do to the "out" group.
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Old 02-19-2007, 04:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
There is no such thing as "black" crime.


many black leaders -- at least in the US -- would disagree with you.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
There is no such thing as "black" crime.
If the murders in London are generally being committed by blacks then I'm happy for it to be segmented in this way. Doesn't mean that all blacks are into crime or that whites are not.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by adrball


If the murders in London are generally being committed by blacks then I'm happy for it to be segmented in this way. Doesn't mean that all blacks are into crime or that whites are not.
are they being committed by blacks


or

are they being committed by a lower social-economic group, that lives in a poverty type area


Are the blacks that live in affluent areas, blacks that are well educated, and better off financially committing more murders?
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:28 PM   #6
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what about black-on-black violence?

while i agree, certainly, with the understanding that race does not make one more prone to commit crime, and that class is race-ed, but is it not perhaps an interesting strategy to try and foster a sense of "ownership" in regards to crime, similar to the way in which many in the gay community think gay men need to take "ownership" of HIV? that, we can say until we are blue in the face that crime doesn't have a race and wealthy blacks don't commit crimes and poor whites do and it's not about races just places, but the fact remains that certain groups are disproportionately affected by crime (or HIV) and that PC waltzing actually does more harm than good (once a basic level of maturity has been reached).
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
what about black-on-black violence?

is that not just

a member of a lower social-economic group, that lives in a poverty type area commiting crimes on his neighbor?
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

are they being committed by blacks

or

are they being committed by a lower social-economic group, that lives in a poverty type area

Are the blacks that live in affluent areas, blacks that are well educated, and better off financially committing more murders?
Of course both are true. But remember it is probably the financially secure drug gang leaders that are committing these crimes. Maybe it there are alternative ways of describing these crimes but I hate all this PC stuff. Tell it how it is, deal with the immediate problem and then pay attention to the root causes of these problems.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by adrball


Of course both are true. But remember it is probably the financially secure drug gang leaders that are committing these crimes. Maybe it there are alternative ways of describing these crimes but I hate all this PC stuff. Tell it how it is, deal with the immediate problem and then pay attention to the root causes of these problems.
as a child I lived about 10 miles from the inner city

where mostly poor black people lived, many on government assistance

I would see the jail bus drive by with black arrested men inside

that was my conditioning


there really were not any blacks in my neighborhood or schools

so when I saw a black person in my area I assumed potential criminal




now as an adult living in a very affuent, low crime area

and some 30 years later

i am constantly challenging my bias sterotypes

trying to atone for bigoted beliefs
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


is that not just

a member of a lower social-economic group, that lives in a poverty type area commiting crimes on his neighbor?


honestly, i think the reason people refer to black-on-black crime is that race does have something to do with it -- insofar as one group uses a fairly obvious signifier to distinguish itself and it's victims from another. it's a complex psychological thing.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


as a child I lived about 10 miles from the inner city

where mostly poor black people lived, many on government assistance

I would see the jail bus drive by with black arrested men inside

that was my conditioning


there really were not any blacks in my neighborhood or schools

so when I saw a black person in my area I assumed potential criminal




now as an adult living in a very affuent, low crime area

and some 30 years later

i am constantly challenging my bias sterotypes

trying to atone for bigoted beliefs


and are we not to think that black kids growing up either where you did, or in these inner-cities, are also tainted by the visual realities of crime and adjust their expectations accordingly?

does American society devalue black life?
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


does American society devalue black life?
I for one certainly do not devalue black life. I'm intelligent enough to consider people as individuals without prejudice.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

does American society devalue black life?
I don't. But many white Americans do.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
and are we not to think that black kids growing up either where you did, or in these inner-cities, are also tainted by the visual realities of crime and adjust their expectations accordingly?
Not sure what you mean by this?

Anyhow, I do understand the effect deep's describing. White people don't read about white people who commit crimes in the newspaper and then start tensing up every time a white person approaches them. A lack of social familiarity combined with racism (and they often go together, of course) is what enables that associative leap to be made. I suppose it might also be true that (for example) you're a bit more likely to feel anxious if a big, sullen-looking, "poor"-ly dressed white guy joins you alone at the bus stop late at night than if a big, sullen-looking white guy in a suit does, but I think typically that effect is nowhere near as pronounced. Of course growing up in an area with lots of gang activity, etc. increases the statistical chance of your getting involved with that kind of thing yourself, but perceiving that as a broader social 'expectation' associated with your skin color is a lot more devaluing than merely being aware that other people who happen to have your skin color commit crimes.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Not sure what you mean by this?



that the race-ing of social class, and the subsequent social problems, affects whites and blacks, as in, if a black person were at that bus stop you've described, would they, too, start tensing up?
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