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Old 02-26-2005, 02:26 AM   #61
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Originally posted by all_i_want
freedom can never be given, it can only be taken

your president's idea of 'freedom' is nothing but a joke.
Taken by doing things like voting for your leaders?

Freedom will be taken by oppressed peoples when offered, and will fight for it when not. We've seen this over and over again in history, especially over the last two centuries. I think that Bush's description of freedom as a fire that burns in the minds of men (I'd prefer "souls of men", but it's the same idea) is a very good one. A lot of people who have opposed the ongoing war in Iraq have taken the tack that the coalition "imposting freedom" or "imposing democracy", which is absurd, because the only people who oppose such things are simply fearful of losing their power.

I'd also like to weigh in on the ongoing discussion of the Cold War. I think it is a mistake to judge the actions of the USA during the Cold War based upon the reality of today's world. It was important for the security of the United States, and indeed the free world by extension, to minimize Soviet influence around the world and on its doorstep in particular. Of course this creates problems wherin you are forced to despose leaders who have garnered popular support: this was an unfortunate reality of the Cold War, and I can only hope that the people whom my country did this to can forgive us, and understand why it was necessary. They can surely appreciate the consequences of an unchecked USSR to the world.

But that era is over, and is history. The choices that were made have consequences that must be dealt with, but they were the right choices for the time. Now we are dealing with those consequences in the world. One way we can do that is by encouraging the flourishing of democratic nations: they come with free elections, accountability in government, freedom of speech and religion, and a free and independent press. And democracy is indeed succeeding. The past few months have been incredible as far as this goes: the free world opposed Russian-backed corruption in Ukraine, the formerly oppressed people of Iraq have defied the religious fanatics to go to the polls. In fact, as we furiously debate the direction of the world, the people of Lebanon have united to win their country back from the Syrian occupancy, which has been in place since before the collapse of the USSR.

You know what? George Bush gets it. He understands exactly what he's doing. Frankly, I'm not sure that he understood it in 2001, when we saw what happens when you let repressive governments blame all of their problems on the west. I'm not sure that he understood it in 2002, when we began wondering what Saddam would do with the weapons we thought he had. I'm not sure that he understood it in 2003, when he launched an invasion to remove a regime that at best was a source of financial aid and comfort for terrorists, and at worst was the future launching point for the third atomic attack in history. But he sure as hell gets it now:

Quote:
Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:

All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: The United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your liberty, we will stand with you.

Democratic reformers facing repression, prison or exile can know: America sees you for who you are -- the future leaders of your free country.

The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."

The leaders of governments with long habits of control need to know: To serve your people you must learn to trust them. Start on this journey of progress and justice, and America will walk at your side.
If you haven't read or seen his speech from his inauguration, I'd encourage you to do so. Here is a link.

And yes, the USA will intervene where appropriate. We will demand that stolen electoins be returned. We will stand up against the thugs and tyrants of the world. We will even put brave young men and women in harm's way to secure freedom for people who want it. This is nothing new for the USA, after fighting for freedom in both World Wars, in Korea, in Vietnam, in Afghanistan, and now in Iraq. We've gotten lost along the way before, that isn't a reason for us to stop: it is a reason for us to continue, to right any past wrongs. We might not have known that we were doing it at first, but it's hard to argue that the USA isn't fighting on the side of freedom in Iraq, and indeed the world.
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Old 02-26-2005, 02:39 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark


???? If it can be taken, it can be given. think about it.

For example, the freedom of the French was taken by Germany then given back to them by the Allies.


As for as Iraq, we'll see what happens. Liberals are usually wrong about these things.
that means only iraqis can earn their freedom, you cant hand it over to them and say 'we have brought you freedom'. iraq will not become a real democracy because the nation has not vested itself in this. they didnt believe the idea in their hearts and fought for it. what you EARN is precious to you, not something thats airdropped. that goes for freedom as well.

if iranians manage to topple their leaders through a revolution, that will be earning their freedom. who knows, maybe they'll even have a lasting democracy. but that's for them to decide. not the US. you can not decide whats right and whats wrong for other people, it is not your place. i know bush people thinks US epitomizes everything good in this world, well, to the rest of the world, it doesnt. US has no 'god given right' (which is plain BS) to intervene in other countries internal affairs. but they do it anyway.

this is why US is so 'popular' in the world.

as someone who has lived in boston for 3 months and studied with americans, i can say most of these people are too good for the kind of government they have.

the history will write down mr bush. but not as a bringer of 'freedom' or 'peace'. as a warmongering dumbass who'd do anything to get his way, including destablizing the world, burning bridges with his allies and invading other countries under false pretenses.

when bush first decided to invade iraq, he didnt say 'we'll bring freedom' he said 'saddam has WMDs, he is dangerous' but he switched to the previous one after the latter turned out to be pure BS.

i cant wait to see how history will judge mr bush. he already is the most hated american president of all time, and he only has 3.5 years to elevate himself to the most hated leader of all time. i hope the judgement will be harsh and uncompromising. 50 years from now, this will shame the americans, just as WW2 today shames the germans. who in germany didnt support hitler during his reign? and with enough dumbass citizens, democracy can be as much of a tyranny as a dictatorship. just like america today. the blind follow the blond.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:05 AM   #63
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Originally posted by all_i_want
he already is the most hated american president of all time
By which measure? He was just re-elected in the USA, which is more than the likes of Jimmy Carter, Gerald Ford, and Herbert Hoover (the most-hated US President by Americans) ever did.

If it's by the world's measure...well, he's done some bold things, which is more than many of his predecessors can say. Reagan was laughed at when he called on Gorbachev to take down the Berlin Wall...
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:14 AM   #64
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he was re-elected, but this doesnt change the fact that everyone who DIDNT vote for him (49 million people) genuinely hate him. at least any of them i ever talked to. and we all know how the rest of the world feels about him. i had a spanish roommate and we were out on a pub, me him and a guy from lousiana (who voted for bush) and my roommate just said 'you have to be stupid, or just a bad person to vote for him'. the guy didnt say anything.

the rest of the world hates bush, you know it, we know it, and that is what history books will write. the fact that he was elected by some 50 million americans doesnt mean he has the right to do anything he wants.

there is a very thick line between boldness and stupidity. bush is way out on the wrong side.

and for his administration, cheney, what can i say, greed is a bottomless pit
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:28 AM   #65
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I'm not one for quibbling over numbers, but I will point out that he was voted for by over sixty million people, which is a record for American Presidents -- not "some 50 million".

"you have to be stupid, or just a bad person to vote for him" -- that guy deserves a "fuck you", and if I were a violent person, he'd get that and a punch in the face from me if he were to say that. Really, comments like that are one reason why a ton of Americans just don't give a damn about what Europe thinks. I'm not one of them, but if that sort of things keeps up I will be.

We don't know what the history books will write, because they're not written yet. They will probably acknowledge the fact that Bush wasn't popular in the world at the time, but they may very well judge that as being a huge mistake on the part of the world. Remember the kind of people that have been hated before they were loved -- Winston Churchill, for example, wasn't exactly popular in the 1930s (nor in fact before then).

I fail to see how supporting democracy and liberty in Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, etc. qualify as "stupid"...sounds to me like the typical "Bush is dumb" drivel. Well, this "stupid" guy has done a great job versus the Democrats, who are presumably the "smart" ones. He's always thrived on being "misunderestimated".
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:33 AM   #66
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<misunderstood comment, deleted>
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:39 AM   #67
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well mr karl rove is to congratulate for mr bush's election victory more than bush himself. also, democrats nominating kerry helped out a lot too.

i have nothing against supporting democratic movements, a la ukraine. even afghanistan i wont argue about, in some twisted way, it was justified. i am all for declaring support for people who are trying to bring democracy to their countries. but that is not done by tanks and bombs.

you might be right about the history books. as long as americans write them, of course. churchill ruled his country under constant threat of invasion and managed to protect his people. thats why he was loved and he deserves praises for that. on the other hand bush invaded countries, his men tortured, humiliated and killed people. i dont see anything heroic about that.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:44 AM   #68
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oh i am sorry about the election numbers, they were 60 million to 57 million, which doesnt really change the premise of my statement. thats just barely more than half.
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Old 02-26-2005, 03:57 AM   #69
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Originally posted by all_i_want
i have nothing against supporting democratic movements, a la ukraine. even afghanistan i wont argue about, in some twisted way, it was justified. i am all for declaring support for people who are trying to bring democracy to their countries. but that is not done by tanks and bombs.
Well, back in the day, it was done by the musket, but the times they are a'changing.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
you might be right about the history books. as long as americans write them, of course. churchill ruled his country under constant threat of invasion and managed to protect his people. thats why he was loved and he deserves praises for that. on the other hand bush invaded countries, his men tortured, humiliated and killed people. i dont see anything heroic about that.
I agree with you that the threat Churchill faced was larger than the one we appear to face now, but I will point out that 9/11/01 saw an extremely rare attack on American soil. Even so, you're trying to dilute my point, which was that Churchill was hated because he saw the threat and wanted to act on it before anyone else did, before he was proven to be right and thus loved (and subsequently voted out of office in 1946 -- the public is fickle!). You and I both know that Bush has condemned the humiliators and torturers of Abu Gharib; indeed, they are being tried and punished for their crimes. Winston Churchill, history likes to forget, advocated using chemical weapons against the inferior Arab peoples...in the context of his time, a sentiment shared by many. Surely you can agree that it is laughable to condemn Bush for crimes that he denounced while at the same time choosing to ignore the very real human rights abuses advocated by one of history's greatest leaders?
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Old 02-26-2005, 04:03 AM   #70
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of course he denounced it! did he have a choice? could he just say 'yeah that was awesome' or just ignore the whole thing until it goes away? that was the only feasible political course of action he could have taken and he took it. the fact that he denounced these crimes does not mean his administration is not responsible. since some people (im looking in your direction, mr rumsfeld) think torture is ok as long as the prisoner have information you want (duh!) ill take any apologies from this administration with a spoonful of salt. im sure someone in the administration knew what was going on, and the only thing they could do when it came out was to claim innocence and denounce these actions.
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Old 02-26-2005, 04:14 AM   #71
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of course he denounced it! did he have a choice? could he just say 'yeah that was awesome' or just ignore the whole thing until it goes away? that was the only feasible political course of action he could have taken and he took it. the fact that he denounced these crimes does not mean his administration is not responsible. since some people (im looking in your direction, mr rumsfeld) think torture is ok as long as the prisoner have information you want (duh!) ill take any apologies from this administration with a spoonful of salt. im sure someone in the administration knew what was going on, and the only thing they could do when it came out was to claim innocence and denounce these actions.
Do you have any evidence for this alarming claim besides your own feeling? What possible use could the administration have for wanting their soldiers to torture and humiliate a few detainees in Iraq? All it's done is given opponents of the war and the Islamofascists another reason to either complain or murder. Why would a man who takes precious minutes out of his day to comfort a girl whose mother lost his life also want his soldiers torturing and humiliating some random imprisoned Iraqi?

And, lest we forget, the worst thing that has happened to arrested terrorists are some isolated incidences of humiliation, and even fewer of torture. The other side is the one that's capturing foriegn aid workers and brutally murdering them, chopping off heads with knives, and the like. Even the worst that we find in our ranks are better than their ilk.

By the way, torture only has one place, and that is as a last-ditch attempt to save a life. See Dirty Harry.
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Old 02-26-2005, 04:39 AM   #72
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so you become a monster so the monster wont break you? the fact that the enemy is brutal is no justification for being brutes yourselves. not if you claim youre a just country and advocates of freedom and democracy. not if you are trying to impose your idea of morality on the world.

also, come on, it is a US military facility. they cant go rogue and do whatever they want. they are the part of the american military machine. someone knew of these atrocities. it would only be naive to think otherwise

and we dont even know what happens in gitmo.

also, youre forgetting that not all of these people are 'arrested terrorists' there are many innocent people in those prisons, but US doesnt know which ones. so they dont discriminate
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Old 02-26-2005, 11:55 AM   #73
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Originally posted by all_i_want
so you become a monster so the monster wont break you? the fact that the enemy is brutal is no justification for being brutes yourselves. not if you claim youre a just country and advocates of freedom and democracy. not if you are trying to impose your idea of morality on the world.
I'm not excusing their criminal activity, I'm pointing out that there are worse things going on in that very area. Kind of like how I think the cops ought to be focusing on preventing and solving the hundreds of murders in Chicago instead of arresting some kids for having a drink (of course, the actions of the Abu Gharibers were definitely worse than that!).

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
also, come on, it is a US military facility. they cant go rogue and do whatever they want. they are the part of the american military machine. someone knew of these atrocities. it would only be naive to think otherwise
They're being prosecuted. What do you want, their scalps?

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Originally posted by all_i_want
and we dont even know what happens in gitmo.
This is true.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
also, youre forgetting that not all of these people are 'arrested terrorists' there are many innocent people in those prisons, but US doesnt know which ones. so they dont discriminate
I'm not forgetting this; in fact, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I carefully avoided characterizing detainees in Iraq as the terrorists that many of them are.
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Old 02-26-2005, 04:33 PM   #74
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i am not saying theyre not being prosecuted and i certainly dont want their scalps,but someone has to assume the POLITICAL responsibility for this, and all thats been said so far is 'this was bad, but we didnt know anything about it, its not our fault'.
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Old 02-26-2005, 08:50 PM   #75
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AllI have to say is read this
http://home.earthlink.net/~platter/n...tism/pnac.html

That was written before Bush got in office. I think you can agree that this was planned way before anyone said anything about WMD's.
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