najeena
War Child
Bush's half-assed admittal of mis-speaking today (y'all took it wrong) was a surprise, because I don't think the man has much of a conscience. If I were him, I'd wake up in a cold sweat every night, thinking about what I'd done.
Gee, we're sure getting rich off of this war! Bush's popularity has skyrocketed since he plunged us into war, killed our soldiers, ruined our international reputation. My how his power has grown!PrimaDonna said:2 important things not to forget:
1US forces secured the oil ministry and oil refineries and neglected other civilian infrastructures...shows you the administration's true priorities...which should make clear the real reasons for this war: money: power: Halliburton's/Cheney's intent to profit from uncontested contracts and the administration's need to control oil and establish hegemony.
drhark said:
I don't think he ever linked Saddam directly. Perhaps you have a quote? I'm not sure about lurid tales either.
PROOF, THEY LIED THE LIARS LIED SO MUCH FOR THIS ILLEGAL HALLIBURTON NEOCON ZIONIST OCCUPATION WAR.“Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11.”
So you see the arguments used prior to the war of democratic change in the Arab world stand and are used today"Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself
and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they’re all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East...."
A_Wanderer said:On point number two; The existence of un-Islamic regimes across the Arab Muslim world is a critical factor in the Islamist ideology, it is this percieved deviation from the path of Allah that drives them, they wish to eliminate all of the petrodollar fueled royal families and socialist dictators and replace them with pure Islamic governments. That is why the liberalisation of the Arab world is important, to remove the dictatorships and stem the support the Islamist ideology recieves from the opressed peoples.
Freedom and democracy are not instant cure-alls for the problems of the world, they have a heap of problems associated with them and people can become disolusioned very quickly but when looking at the problem of religious inspired terror and the factors contributing towards it poor governance and lack of political freedom is high up on the list. You sound like a realist and to that all I can say is that the price of that obscure stability that existed under Saddam is being dug out the desert sands (www.massgraves.info). Do not be so quick to excuse one form of slaughter and condemn another - that can often be the worst form of hypocrisy.
There is nothing wrong with securing oil refineries and infrastructure; I hope that you havent forgotten the results of the Iraqi army torching the oil wells in its retreat from Kuwait. It would be negligent not to secure them, in addition it is the money resulting from that which will in the long term ensure a viable state can continue to exist.
The idea that the US is just there to take the oil is laughable, if they wanted cheap oil they could have just had the sanctions lifted, we know that France and Russia were enjoying the benefits of the smuggled oil and getting china to vote to lift the sanctions would be easy enough. And at the end Saddam would still be in power, there would be cheap oil and Iraq could become strong again and restart all of its side projects at will - everybody wins .
Klink said:
I have to disagree here. The first paragraph represents to me a form of moral absolutism for which I can gather no argument. What about liberalism makes it inherently better than an islamic republic? Is it freedom? Freedom is a sticky word that represents an internal feeling. It's not an absolute concept as neo-liberal doctrine would have us believe. I also encourage you to remember that the best that wars of this nature have accomplished in the past is to replace unfriendly dictators or democratic governments with more friendly ones. Case in point equals America's numerous interventions in Latin America. If we believe that our liberlaism is somehow inherently superior to other ideological forms, then we are as intellectually oppressed as the islamic fundamentalists.
I will insist that neo-liberal wars on words like "terror" are almost as ideological and religiously inspired as the jihad. If freedom and the people are the real issue here (which, make no mistake they are not) then perhaps you are right in that we should not be so quick to excuse this slaughter after having condemned Saddam's. That is just as hypocritical.
What the Iraqi's did to the Kuwaiti oil fields is neither here nor there as are the actions of France and Russia. Their wrongdoings do nothing for the validation of THIS war. Outsourcing responsibility is lazy. The idea that the Americans are not in Iraq to take oil is even more laughable. The US has a clear, long history of coercive, economically driven intervention...re Latin America, again. Lifting sanctions, as you demonstrated, was not an option. The only thing the US fears more than high oil prices is a hostile arabic republic with nuclear capabilities. No doubt this war killed two problems. Why does the US fear high oil prices? Because western economies still run on oil. There is a direct correlation between oil supply, prices and the economy...hence the OPEC crisis in 1973 and the advent of modern era global free trade. It is clear that the growth in china's economy is and will continue driving oil prices up. The Americans economy (as well as ours), highly dependent on oil, requires a foothold and another friendly government in the middle east. Of course, I doubt they will find a long standing one with the mess they have made out of the lives of millions of Iraqis. If the US is not there for oil, then what are they there for? Since I don't have access to the admin, I can only tell you what was publicly put forward; The reason and the results.
Whether the US believed, falsified, lied or misinterpreted evidence of WMD is also irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the entire world did the same thing. Legitmacy lies in the truth os falsity of the justification. The United States and a small group of allies went to war on the major premise of a threat from WMD and it was a false one. With this evaporates the major legitimate cause for the war. Idle chit chat about the benefits of democracy in Iraq is nothing but smoke and mirrors, a "weapon of mass distraction", a red herring. War is a matter of life, death and hardship for millions of people. The decision to go to war is not one to be taken lightly. The Bush admin's fear of WMD in Iraq may in fact have been legit, but fear is not enough to justify war. The burden of proof is on the aggressor, like in any argument. The US was the aggressor here. It was up to them to prove Saddam had weapons. I see no such evidence. Did Saddam get rid of them in the lead up to the war? Any answer here is just a guess. Sorry, the responsibility for justifying this war is on the US. Fact: The US went to war on the major premise that Iraq was an immediate threat to their security. Fact: False. So where does the justification come? Costs and benefits to us are a ridiculous measure of justification because they are ours, and only too self serving.
Jon
drhark said:Jon, could you do me a favor and break down these numbers into categories of civilian casualties vs. armed combatants, those killed directly by US soldiers vs. non US soldiers, etc..., and coould you give us a little background on each of these conflicts... and could you please give an estimate in human lives the cost of the US not being involved in each instance? And why aren't the Germans and Japanese we killed mentioned?
Because without this perspective the above article is a bunch of meaningless drivel from a left wing propagandist indoctrinating American college kids.
drhark said:Why do liberals always bring up body counts to try to demonstrate the evil of the imperialistic, hegemonic, oppressive, corporate, warmongering, oil thirsty U.S. TO THE EXCLUSION OF
the freedom, human rights and prosperity that have been secured to millions and millions and millions through US actions?
Yes we're a superpower and if you're reading this post today it is because we are a superpower.
You should thank God for this beacause I don't think the USSR would have been a very friendly world steward.
And read the Declaration of Independence if you don't know why this is, for fuck's sake.
Iraq New Terror Breeding Ground
War Created Haven, CIA Advisers Report
By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, January 14, 2005; Page A01
Iraq has replaced Afghanistan as the training ground for the next generation of "professionalized" terrorists, according to a report released yesterday by the National Intelligence Council, the CIA director's think tank.
Iraq provides terrorists with "a training ground, a recruitment ground, the opportunity for enhancing technical skills," said David B. Low, the national intelligence officer for transnational threats. "There is even, under the best scenario, over time, the likelihood that some of the jihadists who are not killed there will, in a sense, go home, wherever home is, and will therefore disperse to various other countries."
Low's comments came during a rare briefing by the council on its new report on long-term global trends. It took a year to produce and includes the analysis of 1,000 U.S. and foreign experts. Within the 119-page report is an evaluation of Iraq's new role as a breeding ground for Islamic terrorists.
President Bush has frequently described the Iraq war as an integral part of U.S. efforts to combat terrorism. But the council's report suggests the conflict has also helped terrorists by creating a haven for them in the chaos of war.
"At the moment," NIC Chairman Robert L. Hutchings said, Iraq "is a magnet for international terrorist activity."
Before the U.S. invasion, the CIA said Saddam Hussein had only circumstantial ties with several al Qaeda members. Osama bin Laden rejected the idea of forming an alliance with Hussein and viewed him as an enemy of the jihadist movement because the Iraqi leader rejected radical Islamic ideals and ran a secular government.
Bush described the war in Iraq as a means to promote democracy in the Middle East. "A free Iraq can be a source of hope for all the Middle East," he said one month before the invasion. "Instead of threatening its neighbors and harboring terrorists, Iraq can be an example of progress and prosperity in a region that needs both."
But as instability in Iraq grew after the toppling of Hussein, and resentment toward the United States intensified in the Muslim world, hundreds of foreign terrorists flooded into Iraq across its unguarded borders. They found tons of unprotected weapons caches that, military officials say, they are now using against U.S. troops. Foreign terrorists are believed to make up a large portion of today's suicide bombers, and U.S. intelligence officials say these foreigners are forming tactical, ever-changing alliances with former Baathist fighters and other insurgents.
"The al-Qa'ida membership that was distinguished by having trained in Afghanistan will gradually dissipate, to be replaced in part by the dispersion of the experienced survivors of the conflict in Iraq," the report says.
According to the NIC report, Iraq has joined the list of conflicts -- including the Israeli-Palestinian stalemate, and independence movements in Chechnya, Kashmir, Mindanao in the Philippines, and southern Thailand -- that have deepened solidarity among Muslims and helped spread radical Islamic ideology.
At the same time, the report says that by 2020, al Qaeda "will be superseded" by other Islamic extremist groups that will merge with local separatist movements. Most terrorism experts say this is already well underway. The NIC says this kind of ever-morphing decentralized movement is much more difficult to uncover and defeat.
Terrorists are able to easily communicate, train and recruit through the Internet, and their threat will become "an eclectic array of groups, cells and individuals that do not need a stationary headquarters," the council's report says. "Training materials, targeting guidance, weapons know-how, and fund-raising will become virtual (i.e. online)."
The report, titled "Mapping the Global Future," highlights the effects of globalization and other economic and social trends. But NIC officials said their greatest concern remains the possibility that terrorists may acquire biological weapons and, although less likely, a nuclear device.
The council is tasked with midterm and strategic analysis, and advises the CIA director. "The NIC's goal," one NIC publication states, "is to provide policymakers with the best, unvarnished, and unbiased information -- regardless of whether analytic judgments conform to U.S. policy."
Other than reports and studies, the council produces classified National Intelligence Estimates, which represent the consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies on specific issues.
Yesterday, Hutchings, former assistant dean of the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University, said the NIC report tried to avoid analyzing the effect of U.S. policy on global trends to avoid being drawn into partisan politics.
Among the report's major findings is that the likelihood of "great power conflict escalating into total war . . . is lower than at any time in the past century." However, "at no time since the formation of the Western alliance system in 1949 have the shape and nature of international alignments been in such a state of flux as they have in the past decade."
The report also says the emergence of China and India as new global economic powerhouses "will be the most challenging of all" Washington's regional relationships. It also says that in the competition with Asia over technological advances, the United States "may lose its edge" in some sectors.
Staff writer Bradley Graham and researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.
all_i_want said:freedom can never be given, it can only be taken
your president's idea of 'freedom' is nothing but a joke.
Nube Gris said:[BThe US government invaded Iraq to benefit economically from greater control over oil supply and so that corporations would benefit from the reconstruction contracts. [/B]
drhark said:
Liberals are usually wrong about these things.