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Old 09-26-2005, 04:54 PM   #1
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its official: im sick and tired..

..of my country being pushed around by the EU. i thought entering EU would be beneficial to us, but i just might have been wrong. it seems to me that they are trying to stall the negotiations by throwing us problems that we can not solve, asking us to make concessions, eventually advocating a 'privileged partnership' and they'll finally vote us off in referendums. i dont believe EU has any serious intention of letting Turkey become full-fledged member at any given time, and i feel that we are being played. the framework document which the negotiations will be based on is simply terrible, it doesnt allow free movement of labor (or people, for that matter) even when Turkey does become a member, it requires us to recognize Cyprus before the issue is solved or we become a member, maybe even the dubious claims on an armenian massacre. since they can not outright reject us now, they will make things so hard for us that we'll finally just say 'to hell with membership' and walk away.

i think Turkey should stop wasting time and look for other partnership options.

this thread seems doomed since its about a non-american issue :P, but i had to get it out!
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:00 PM   #2
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i am following it a bit


Quote:
i think Turkey should stop wasting time and look for other partnership options
this may be your best option

i wonder if Islamaphobia is behind EU actions?
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:53 PM   #3
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I agree with you...I get the feeling they have no intention of letting your country into the EU anytime soon.
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:19 AM   #4
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Re: its official: im sick and tired..

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


i think Turkey should stop wasting time and look for other partnership options.

this thread seems doomed since its about a non-american issue :P, but i had to get it out!

Keep posting anyway, it's still important, even if some choose to overlook it


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Old 09-27-2005, 09:02 AM   #5
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I think it's a difficult decision. I for one don't think the EU should expand anymore than they've already done. You can ask yourself if Turkey is in Europe anyway... Geographically, a small part of it is, but you can ask yourself if it is culturally... But I do agree that they need to take a decision on it. Stop messing around and let Turkey know what's up.

But saying that, I'm not too happy about the EU anyway (even though it's allowed me to work in another country without too much paperwork etc.).
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:31 AM   #6
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First, the negotiations are just starting, so the terms of the negotiation paper will change a bit.
Second, these conditions are not all only for Turkey, but for all countries that want to become members of the EU. The EU would love to take every country in Europe, but we can't. There has to be some requirements countries have to fulfil, otherwise the EU would break down. They can't make it economically if the countries which want to become a member haven't got a stable economy which can compete with other countries.
Third, by 2015 you'll have approximately 80 million citizens. If there was free movement of labour directly after Turkey had become a member western European companies would employ many Turkeys as cheap labour. That's not good for you, because it's kind of exploitation, and it wouldn't be good for us, because many of us would become unemployed.
The ten countries that have become members in May 2004 also have such requirements and the free movement of labour isn't allowed to them either. But in a few years it will be allowed.
Fourth, the EU has requirements like being open minded to the own history, although there are some countries which are not, and there shoudl be no argument between two members, like Turkey and Greece. So you have to come to a compromise with Greece in the question of Cyprus.
The negotiations are at the beginning, they will take about ten to 15 years, and nobody knows whether Turkey will become a member or not.
And what Angela Merkel says or did say doesn't count.
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Old 09-27-2005, 11:26 AM   #7
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Those are good points Vincent, and I can understand how the economic factor is a huge sticking point. As much as you'd like to get all "one world" if it's going to cost a country jobs it's not going to be very popular.
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:51 PM   #8
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That's the problem. We only can take countries into the EU if we can afford it. And not only the EU has to do something, also the country that wants to become a member.
But with the membership it really gets a lot of help by the EU, so you don't have to have a perfect economy, but one which could have a chance to develop with the money the EU has.
We have to help our long-time members, like in Germany the east, and we have to support the ten new members a lot. For the next five years it is planned to take three to five new countries from the former Eastern Block which need a lot of help.
These all are costs for the Eu and its members, and the amount of money isn't infinite.
And no country wants to see its own citizens become unemployed because the companies leave the country or employ the cheapest labour. But after the countries and their wages have developed to a similar level the citizens can move freely within the EU countries.

But all of this needs time, and we all have to be patient.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:36 PM   #9
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I don't blame you for being exasperated with the whole situation. The German elections are not a good sign for Turkey's EU bid as the leading conservative opposes EU membership for Turkey. What other affiliations are an option for Turkey?
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:12 PM   #10
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Ah, don't overestimate the power of Merkel and the conservative CDU/CSU.
The EU decides whether Turkey becomes a member or not, not Germany or the German government.
So, if Turkey fulfils the requirements it has good chances to become a member.
And it needs ten to 15 years, a lot can happen in that time.
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Old 09-27-2005, 05:36 PM   #11
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OK, for obvious reasons you know a hell of alot more about German and EU politics than I ever will. You're from Germany, I'm from the U.S. End of comments on the matter.............
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I don't blame you for being exasperated with the whole situation. The German elections are not a good sign for Turkey's EU bid as the leading conservative opposes EU membership for Turkey. What other affiliations are an option for Turkey?
Well, there are several options, although so far none have been considered the way EU has been considered. Russia, which Turkish private sector has sizeable investment in, is always a possible partner, along with the middle asian countries which are rich in terms of energy resources.

US is obviously a very important partner, and frankly at this point I'd rather see Turkey in NAFTA than in the EU! (Although that is not really geographically viable, you know what i mean :P)

One option for Turkey has always been to lead the middle east and the islamic world, and we'd be far better suited for that than Egypt, but I dont think that is a role we are keen on playing.

A very good point in Huntington's clash of civilizations, although there are others i dont agree with, was that turkey is neither totally western nor really eastern. we are too western, too secular, too 'heretic' and too wayward for the middle east. we are too eastern, too large, too muslim and too much of an 'ex-enemy' for europe. Other countries that were mentioned in a similar situation were russia, japan and australia. I think the viability of a strong asian block, including china, india, japan, russia and turkey should be explored.

for the time being, however, i think turkey should make moves towards the middle asia, russia, middle east and surprise, surprise, india. now turkey is becoming an important energy corridor between the east and west, and we should build on this advantage.

id like to talk a bit on vincent's comments, because turkey's situation is rather different than the other countries that were included in the enlargement process.

while talking about the economic state of the entrants, do you have any idea about the situation romanian economy's in? or bulgarian? turkey has a far better economy than both of these countries, and EU is letting both of these countries in. and in 15 years time, i think our economy will probably be more than adequate to enter the EU, if those countries' was.

the entrance of southern cyprus in the union was simply wrong, and if i may say so, foolish on the part of EU. it is obvious that there is a conflict between s. cyprus and turkey, and they waved them in before any solution could be found. now we have to deal with a country we dont even recognize, although we were not the ones who voted down a UN peace plan!

i also see that the general argument (turkey's too poor, too large, too muslim, too everything) is also taking hold in europe. we've done pretty well on the terms and conditions, as well as the european criteria, so far, but there is one mindset that we simply can not overcome. one EU commisioner said something like 'allowing turkey in would be the total reversal of the battle in vienna (which stopped the ottomans from moving further into europe, in 17th century)' there is an irony in this. if EU supported turkey and we had an increased standard of living, most turks who are living abroad would prefer coming back. i mean, have you ever been to turkey? why the hell would anyone go and live under the gloomy german weather if they could have a better life at home? why would someone want to leave their hometown if they had a sustainable living standard there? i just think the fear of a 'turkish invasion' is unfounded and exaggerated.

saying that people like merkel and sarkozy coming to power would have no effects on the negotiations is a bit naive, in my opinion. the tide is now against turkey, because those governments may ask for certain compromises which we simply can not make. and eventually we would break down the process because the public would start thinking that maybe EU is not worth making all these compromises.
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:59 PM   #13
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I would say, the influence of Germany in the EU, and so Merkel, is big, but the terms for the negotiations already are made up. Merkel can't do anything to change them.
And the decision also not only is made by Germany and Poland. There have more countries to change government to say there is no chance for Turkey.

I agree, it was a big mistake what the EU made with Cyprus. I also would say Cyprus has to wait for membership until a compromise is made. But I can't change it anymore.
Also Romania and other countries which will become members in the next years are not good for the EU's economical situation. I don't know why they are letting it go that fast. But it's politics.

Turkeys economical situation in the west and south where the tourism and industry is is really good. But the east of Turkey still is way underdeveloped. And there is the problem with the Kurds which has to be overcome.
Also, Turkey has much more citizens than the three new members together, so the "weight" of a Turkish membership is much greater than those. So we need a bit of economical and financial "backup" for the Turkish membership.
I'm not that happy that the EU expands that fast at the moment, but I can't change it. So we need to strengthen those countries, and then we will be strong enough to take Turkey, too. But it needs time.

I agree and don't think millions of Turks will settle over to western Europe immediately after the accendence of Turkey. But still we need a restriciton so that we can prepare for it, so that no company exploits the people with low wages.
Sadly, I have to say there are some gaps in the laws so that many companies exploit many of employees at the moment. But there are also some wage rises and so the situation improves a bit.
And I totally agree, if the economical conditions of Turkey were as good as ours, not only the Turks would go back to Turkey, also all the Germans ranning away from the shitty weather. It's so cold over here I can't think anybody who comes from a warm region would stay in Germany

So, give peace a chance, and give the negotiations a chance. With no backup in the public it's hard to become a member of anything.
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Old 09-27-2005, 08:13 PM   #14
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Yes, I've read comments about Romania and Bulgaria. They have all sorts of problems. I wouldn't know but maybe some people aren't playing fair as per EU memberships are concerned.
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:10 PM   #15
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It would be something new if the EU as a political system was fair
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