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Old 11-14-2004, 04:36 PM   #16
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The feeling when actually doing labor to help people rather than signing a check is so wonderful. If only more people would get off their lazy butts and do something this world would be a better place.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat


What's that for?
I'm sorry U2democrat, I'm just feeling a little frustrated.
Everyone keeps talking about the bracelet thing. I left that behind at the other thread and am trying to discuss charity vs justice.

It's me. I just didn't relate my thoughts correctly at the beginning of this thread is all.

Carry on.
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:40 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne


I'm sorry U2democrat, I'm just feeling a little frustrated.
Everyone keeps talking about the bracelet thing. I left that behind at the other thread and am trying to discuss charity vs justice.

It's me. I just didn't relate my thoughts correctly at the beginning of this thread is all.

Carry on.
My bad!
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Old 11-14-2004, 04:47 PM   #19
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So is justice a subject that is as private as charity?
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne
I stopped posting in the bracelet thread and started this new thread. The subject is:

Is helping Africa and other poor countries get on their feet..

Justice or Charity.

NOT bracelets.
well when you quote me, i'm going to respond to that quote... that quote was in the "wristband" thread, and was directed at certain people who were insinuating that i'm not "doing my part" because i think ribbons and wristbands are cheesey
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Old 11-14-2004, 05:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

well when you quote me, i'm going to respond to that quote... that quote was in the "wristband" thread, and was directed at certain people who were insinuating that i'm not "doing my part" because i think ribbons and wristbands are cheesey
I understand that switching to this new thread is confusing everyone. Sorry about that.

The point I was getting at with your response in the other thread is that you used the word charity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase

you have no clue what i do, charity wise. and you will continue to have no clue, because it's no one's business but my own.
So I drummed up all of the links & quotes that I posted in this thread to point out that it's justice not charity.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne


I understand that switching to this new thread is confusing everyone. Sorry about that.

The point I was getting at with your response in the other thread is that you used the word charity.



So I drummed up all of the links & quotes that I posted in this thread to point out that it's justice not charity.
I think that is a problem though...getting people to agree that it is justice and not charity. It's much easier to think of this as charity, write a check, and forget about it, than to actually push for real change in the way the world sees and deals with the problem of extreme poverty, no matter where it is. I'm not singling anyone out...we all do it, but changing the perception of this as a problem that can be solved by giving to charity to seeing it as an issue that must be dealt with on a more basic level is a very important (yet frustrating) first step.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:30 PM   #23
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I'll offer some of my opinions.

Yes, this is about justice. But I think justice in itself is just an abstract terms to people who have not seen this sort of suffering first hand. And for that, I can't and don't really blame them. Viktor Frankl said once, about discussing the holocaust, that those who didn't go through it will never understand, and those who did, you don't have to say a word to, because they just get it. Africa is a terribly sad and a terribly inspired place, but for most people, it is a series of pictures or disconnected frames on a film roll.

Yes, the Buddha was right - all life is suffering, but everything is relative. Some people will become incredibly impassioned for this cause without having seen it first hand, but I believe that the vast majority will always experience a sort of disconnect, because it's not children dying in the ditch in front of your home. You don't see it, you don't mourn it on a daily basis.

So, the question is, how do we turn this from an abstract idea into something that reaches each of us personally? Is Oprah right? Do we honestly not believe these children are equal to our children, because in our hearts, if we believed that, we'd never allow what's happening? I don't think she's right per se, I just don't think that the multitude of people really comprehend what death and destruction mean. The first world and its people have largely been sheltered for the last 50 years. We've not had our children slaughtered and our wives raped in our homes while our men fought wars. We've not had millions die of famine or diarrhea. We've not lived as starving refugees in a land that didn't want us. This is what the Africans experience every day of their lives, and our hearts just haven't broken for them completely yet.

IMVVHO, Bono is in some ways barking up the wrong tree. I've said this before and I don't think it was an incredibly popular opinion, but I'll say it again. He's done well with the politicians and many are on board. But he's spending too much time and too much energy with the politicians and that doesn't inspire the people. He has to go to the streets and get the complacent middle class behind him in huge numbers. It is my opinion that he has thus failed to do so, and he's also not really tried all that hard. The politicians will never give him what he wants until they have pressure from the people. And the people will not apply any pressure until they start to see in concrete and real terms what this tragedy entails.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:36 PM   #24
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I agree with the anitram that the middle class needs to be inspired. We're the politicians constituents, and if the constituents ain't happy, the pols are nervous. We need to make noise, that'll get something done.
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Old 11-14-2004, 06:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram

IMVVHO, Bono is in some ways barking up the wrong tree. I've said this before and I don't think it was an incredibly popular opinion, but I'll say it again. He's done well with the politicians and many are on board. But he's spending too much time and too much energy with the politicians and that doesn't inspire the people. He has to go to the streets and get the complacent middle class behind him in huge numbers. It is my opinion that he has thus failed to do so, and he's also not really tried all that hard. The politicians will never give him what he wants until they have pressure from the people. And the people will not apply any pressure until they start to see in concrete and real terms what this tragedy entails.
I agree. Politicians don't do things because the things are right, they do them because they get pressure from their constituents. Until their constituents care enough to push, the politicians won't do that much.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:34 PM   #26
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I agree with Anitram as well. It's a very real problem right now that the grassroots movements are not taking hold and it's not being dramatized enough. The politicians know it,they've told activists you need middle america and you don't have it. I do think organizations such as DATA and many others do need to concentrate on these grassroot appeals in addition to working with the politicians, it seems to have had a bit of a shift in focus since the hearts of america tour. I'm not saying thats up to Bono or DATA even for that matter but there is a need to get back to bringing this to the people.
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Old 11-14-2004, 07:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne
Is helping Africa and other poor countries get on their feet..

Justice or Charity.
I'm not sure it is either.

I would characterize it as loving thy neighbor.

But I understand and support the thoughts behind the call for justice.
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Old 11-14-2004, 11:24 PM   #28
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I can see Anitram's point....BUT what of when Bono drove around in a trailer truck across middle America and talking to citizen's about the AIDS crisis?
Bono has tried to get grassroots support but to be honest the governments of theses nations are the ones imposing the crippling debts and denying medical treatment to those in Africa. It's a multifaceted problem.
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Old 11-15-2004, 12:06 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
IMVVHO, Bono is in some ways barking up the wrong tree. I've said this before and I don't think it was an incredibly popular opinion, but I'll say it again. He's done well with the politicians and many are on board. But he's spending too much time and too much energy with the politicians and that doesn't inspire the people. He has to go to the streets and get the complacent middle class behind him in huge numbers. It is my opinion that he has thus failed to do so, and he's also not really tried all that hard. The politicians will never give him what he wants until they have pressure from the people. And the people will not apply any pressure until they start to see in concrete and real terms what this tragedy entails.
I agree with you that the answer is getting to the people and not the politicians at this point. I argued the same point in the "Bush will help Bono" thread.

I think Bono has started to shift gears with the Heartland tour, the Bill O'Reilly interview and the kick off the of "One" campaign to name a few.
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Old 11-15-2004, 12:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
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I'm not sure it is either.

I would characterize it as loving thy neighbor.

But I understand and support the thoughts behind the call for justice.
Exactly. So why is it so hard for us (not us here at FYM, but us as in all people) to all band together and Love thy neighbor? It's such a basic moral guideline that we are all taught to follow - Religious or not.

I know what Anitram said about people being detached because it's not their front yard has a lot to do about it - but what can be done to change this?
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