it's His followers I could live without

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80sU2isBest said:
You don't like God's followers? really?
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Reading through the "New Jersey" thread and every thread like it for the past six years here, would you really blame me? And that's only the tip of the iceberg when I start throwing in GOP campaign ads for the last six years.

It often feels like people take the line where Jesus said "to give up everything to follow me" to mean "to give up all sense of reality, common sense, and reason" to follow Him.

I can perfectly see why many people take the easy road and become an atheist; because it's an awful lot of headaches trying to find my place within modern Christianity.

Melon
 
melon said:


Reading through the "New Jersey" thread and every thread like it for the past six years here, would you really blame me? And that's only the tip of the iceberg when I start throwing in GOP campaign ads for the last six years.

It often feels like people take the line where Jesus said "to give up everything to follow me" to mean "to give up all sense of reality, common sense, and reason" to follow Him.

I can perfectly see why many people take the easy road and become an atheist; because it's an awful lot of headaches trying to find my place within modern Christianity.

Melon
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I've not seen you take issue with conservative Christians on any issue except homosexuality. Do you dislike us because we think homosexuality is wrong? Does that mean that you automatically dislike everyone who does not agree with you on homosexuality? You have every right to dislike people for any reason you like, but I think it's short-sighted to dislike someone because they disagree with you on homosexuality. I don't dislike you, even though we don't agree on the issue.
 
80sU2isBest said:
I've not seen you take issue with conservative Christians on any issue except homosexuality. Do you dislike us because we think homosexuality is wrong? Does that mean that you automatically dislike everyone who does not agree with you on homosexuality? You have every right to dislike people for any reason you like, but I think it's short-sighted to dislike someone because they disagree with you on homosexuality. I don't dislike you, even though we don't agree on the issue.
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If I were black and someone said that being black was a symbol of sin, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "whiteness" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for blacks would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a black man?

If I were Jewish and someone said that I was going to hell because I was Jewish, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "Christianity" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for Jews would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a Jew?

If I am gay and someone says that I'm going to hell because I am gay, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "heterosexuality" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for homosexuals would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what do you expect me to think of that? How am I supposed to think very much of that person?

Why must I make an extra effort to like people who clearly hate me, when we'd more than understand a black man hating a racist or a Jew hating an anti-Semite?

With that, I don't know if I truly hate anyone. But again, I've had to equip an inordinately high amount of willpower that I certainly don't see being reciprocated in this world.

Melon
 
Great post Melon. I totally sympathize. I know to some people it may be that I'm sitting on a fence about this, being a practicing Catholic, but the Pax Christi/lefty wing of the Catholic Church is very visible in the U.S. We drive the Vatican nuts. But God gave us all equal dignity, and to me that must include gays and the things that insure their well-being.
 
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My issue with God's followers is the tone of condescension when you disagree with them... whether or not they've done homework on a subject. This can not be generalized to all folks but it certainly rings true every time I have been hoodwinked into visiting a congregation
 
melon said:


If I were black and someone said that being black was a symbol of sin, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "whiteness" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for blacks would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a black man?

If I were Jewish and someone said that I was going to hell because I was Jewish, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "Christianity" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for Jews would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a Jew?

If I am gay and someone says that I'm going to hell because I am gay, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "heterosexuality" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for homosexuals would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what do you expect me to think of that? How am I supposed to think very much of that person?

Why must I make an extra effort to like people who clearly hate me, when we'd more than understand a black man hating a racist or a Jew hating an anti-Semite?

With that, I don't know if I truly hate anyone. But again, I've had to equip an inordinately high amount of willpower that I certainly don't see being reciprocated in this world.

Melon
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I'll get to the "hell" part first. Has anyone who is still active in these forums ever said that you are going to hell because you are gay? I don't think I've ever read that from anyone.

I also don't think that any of us Christians who still actively post in this forum hate you. I don't even dislike you, and I am not attacking you as a person. What I think is sin is if you participate in homosexual sexual relations. I also think that any heterosexual who participates in sexual relations before or outside of marriage is committing sin. But I don't attack those people. I've never been married but I had a sexual relationship over a decade ago. That was sin, and I still commit other sins. I believe that everyone commits sin. Does that mean I am personally attacking everyone?

Yes, some "religious" people make it personal and attack gay people with verbal and physical assault, hatred, and other evils. But I don't, because I understand that you may have committed the sin of homosexual sin, but I have committed sins also, many that you probably haven't.

I can detach the sin from the person committing the sin. I really can, because I know that is what Christ did for me, by loving me and dying for me, even though I was guilt-stained with sin.
 
Can a mod separate this thread into two pieces....my original post and relevant responses......
 
melon said:
I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon
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It really saddens me how religion has been exploited and abused by many. I'm hurt to think that people equate God's followers with hate. God is love! And God's followers should be reflections of that love.

But I can see why you would feel this way. Not all, but there are certainly some people who do some pretty nasty stuff in the name of God. And it is totally contradictory to what God is. And unfortunately, it appears they have monopolized the media's attention.

I feel awful that you and so many others feel this way. I hope that some day things will turn around. I hope that you know that there are loads of us out there who aren't like that. We're not as vocal about it, but that's because instead of talking smack in public, we're out there on our hands and knees working with people, volunteering, etc., and not isolating ourselves from them.

And there is definitely a place for you in modern Christianity! Any community would love to include you. You are brilliant and thoughtful, and your posts are inspiring and thought provoking.
 
I've often said that sometimes I really wish Christianity would go back to the days of marking the "fish" in the sand.

I honestly think it would weed out many of those that mask relgion to justify their own demons.

A friend of mine once said if he ever started a church he would place an electric chair on the steeple instead of a cross, in hopes to remove the symbols and the posteuring. He hoped one day people could take the teachings and actually place them in present tense rather than the past...
 
martha said:
80s, I don't think you fully addressed melon's post outlining the various situations akin to homosexuality.

Because he's right on the money.
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The reason I didn't address them is because the comparisons were not accurate.

While I have expressed my opinion that homosexuality is wrong, I have never said anything againt melon or any homosexual personally. I have never insulted them because of their homosexuality.

There is no comparison between (1) saying that committing a sexual act is a sin and (2)insulting/abusing a person because of his/her race.

Before my year's absence from FYM, I used to get involved more frequently in the gay marriage/ adoption threads. I quit because of the nature of the conflict that I was having with a certain person. We were arguing quite fiercely, and I became very ashamed of my role in it.

Since I've been back, I have steered clear of those issues, until I posted in the "New Jersey" thread. The only reason I posted in that thread was because the 2 other people who share my views were being bashed as if they were the reincarnation of Hitler.
 
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BonoVoxSupastar said:


Oh, come on...
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No, that is the truth. Some people were being quite rude to them, and I wanted to show some support for them.
 
80sU2isBest said:


No, that is the truth. Some people were being quite rude to them, and I wanted to show some support for them.
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reincarnation of Hitler though? Let's not forget who made the first personal attack in there either. Equating someone's sexuality to polygamy or incest is a personal attack and was much worse than any rudeness they may have received.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


reincarnation of Hitler though? Let's not forget who made the first personal attack in there either. Equating someone's sexuality to polygamy or incest is a personal attack and was much worse than any rudeness they may have received.
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I just thought I should clarify something, only because I do want people to get the wrong impression about my intentions in regards to comparing homosexual marriage with incest and polygamy.
My intention was only to point out there are other “possible” marriage scenarios that would need to be addressed once we start picking and choosing who can and can’t get married outside of the original concept of “one and one woman.”
I thought I made that clear, but I obviously did not.
 
AEON said:

I thought I made that clear, but I obviously did not.
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Yet you were pointed out time and time again that your scenarios didn't work, because even incest can fall into your "one man, one woman" defintion, but you insisted on making the correlation regardless.
 
AEON said:

I just thought I should clarify something, only because I do want people to get the wrong impression about my intentions in regards to comparing homosexual marriage with incest and polygamy.
My intention was only to point out there are other “possible” marriage scenarios that would need to be addressed once we start picking and choosing who can and can’t get married outside of the original concept of “one and one woman.”
I thought I made that clear, but I obviously did not.
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It was quite clear to me, Aeon.
 
melon said:
I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon
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Melon, I must admit, I find this post heartbreaking. I am guessing that my posts in the NJ thread had at least some part in your reasoning to post this statement.

I am sorry you feel this way. I am sorry that you think of your brothers and sisters this way. I am sorry that I played a part in it. I pray that you can somehow see that what I say, I do say out of love for everyone who reads it – and for you. I realize how condescending and arrogant that sounds, but it is true nonetheless.

You do have a place in modern Christianity. Everyone does. All they have to do is claim it. I am quite certain God could use your mind and abilities to do many great things.

I think I recall you stating that you are a Christian. Please correct me if I am wrong. And by a Christian, I mean that you have accepted Christ. If this is true, please consider the following passage. This is not an indictment, but only a reminder. Much of our attitudes about other people can be changed when we stop trying to judge their motivations, and begin seeing them as God sees them: as hurting, struggling human beings that are trying to find meaning and significance to their lives. I know that many don’t like my Scripture quoting, but until I am actually banned, then I will continue to use it when I think it will add or clarify.
In response to your sentence that started this thread, please prayerfully read this passage from 1 John 4:

20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
 
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Melon, this thread obviously fits under the "frustration" categrory, and i don't blame you. Hey, good to vent every now and then.

I would hope, though, that you're not going through a "shit, i give up with these people" phase. Over the past six years, you have consistently lead this forum (along with others, e.g. Irvine) in fighting the good fight, providing excellent historicial/social/anthrolpological context on numerous issues (i.e. not just homosexual rights), and, on many occasions, changing people's minds with straight-forward rationalism.

Uh...that's all i wanted to say. I have nothing to say for/against people who follow...what's the proposed entity again?...oh yes, God.

I would disagree with you on your one comment: "I can perfectly see why many people take the easy road and become an atheist."

Easy or hard road has nothing to do with it. I would think, in the least, people arrive at their personal views of the universe after a thorough question/answer exercise (even after being introduced to said belief systems through a socialized-cultural-sometimes-imposed context, such as "being raised religious"), and live with their beliefs because it resonates as "truth" to them. The fact that some of these "truths" seem to be inconsistently implied (such as when they trample on inalienable human rights and civil liberties, even when you're supposed to love everyone), should result, I believe, in a reassessment or reapplication of the "truths" rather than a perpetuation of them.

But, hey, what do i know. I don't believe in God.
 
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I understood as well. I only got involved (as I did last time) when it became clear that any challenge was being met (with a few exceptions) not with logic or facts, but with dismissive charges of bigotry or "shut the f@#k up."
Equating someone's sexuality to polygamy or incest is a personal attack and was much worse than any rudeness they may have received.
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Only if you disregard ALL the posts equating those that defend traditional marriage today to yesterday's segregationists.
 
INDY500 said:

Only if you disregard ALL the posts equating those that defend traditional marriage today to yesterday's segregationists.
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You don't see the merit? Come on. I know you're a status quo guy, but honestly, you are still denying someone a right.

They don't compare, but nice try.
 
INDY500 said:
Only if you disregard ALL the posts equating those that defend traditional marriage today to yesterday's segregationists.
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but if you compare the arguments between today and 1967 or so, it's the exact same argument. goes against god, unnatural, etc.
 
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