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Old 10-28-2006, 01:36 AM   #1
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I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

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Old 10-28-2006, 01:38 AM   #2
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I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

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You don't like God's followers? really?
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Old 10-28-2006, 01:55 AM   #3
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You don't like God's followers? really?
Reading through the "New Jersey" thread and every thread like it for the past six years here, would you really blame me? And that's only the tip of the iceberg when I start throwing in GOP campaign ads for the last six years.

It often feels like people take the line where Jesus said "to give up everything to follow me" to mean "to give up all sense of reality, common sense, and reason" to follow Him.

I can perfectly see why many people take the easy road and become an atheist; because it's an awful lot of headaches trying to find my place within modern Christianity.

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Old 10-28-2006, 02:14 AM   #4
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Reading through the "New Jersey" thread and every thread like it for the past six years here, would you really blame me? And that's only the tip of the iceberg when I start throwing in GOP campaign ads for the last six years.

It often feels like people take the line where Jesus said "to give up everything to follow me" to mean "to give up all sense of reality, common sense, and reason" to follow Him.

I can perfectly see why many people take the easy road and become an atheist; because it's an awful lot of headaches trying to find my place within modern Christianity.

Melon
I've not seen you take issue with conservative Christians on any issue except homosexuality. Do you dislike us because we think homosexuality is wrong? Does that mean that you automatically dislike everyone who does not agree with you on homosexuality? You have every right to dislike people for any reason you like, but I think it's short-sighted to dislike someone because they disagree with you on homosexuality. I don't dislike you, even though we don't agree on the issue.
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Old 10-28-2006, 02:31 AM   #5
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I've not seen you take issue with conservative Christians on any issue except homosexuality. Do you dislike us because we think homosexuality is wrong? Does that mean that you automatically dislike everyone who does not agree with you on homosexuality? You have every right to dislike people for any reason you like, but I think it's short-sighted to dislike someone because they disagree with you on homosexuality. I don't dislike you, even though we don't agree on the issue.
If I were black and someone said that being black was a symbol of sin, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "whiteness" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for blacks would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a black man?

If I were Jewish and someone said that I was going to hell because I was Jewish, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "Christianity" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for Jews would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a Jew?

If I am gay and someone says that I'm going to hell because I am gay, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "heterosexuality" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for homosexuals would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what do you expect me to think of that? How am I supposed to think very much of that person?

Why must I make an extra effort to like people who clearly hate me, when we'd more than understand a black man hating a racist or a Jew hating an anti-Semite?

With that, I don't know if I truly hate anyone. But again, I've had to equip an inordinately high amount of willpower that I certainly don't see being reciprocated in this world.

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Old 10-28-2006, 03:07 AM   #6
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Wow Melon, what an eloquent post. I absolutely agree.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:06 PM   #7
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I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon
Mercy.
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Old 10-28-2006, 09:26 PM   #8
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Great post Melon. I totally sympathize. I know to some people it may be that I'm sitting on a fence about this, being a practicing Catholic, but the Pax Christi/lefty wing of the Catholic Church is very visible in the U.S. We drive the Vatican nuts. But God gave us all equal dignity, and to me that must include gays and the things that insure their well-being.
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Old 10-29-2006, 12:54 AM   #9
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Originally posted by melon
I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon
AMEN and AMEN HALLELUYA
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Old 10-29-2006, 12:59 AM   #10
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My issue with God's followers is the tone of condescension when you disagree with them... whether or not they've done homework on a subject. This can not be generalized to all folks but it certainly rings true every time I have been hoodwinked into visiting a congregation
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Old 10-29-2006, 07:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


If I were black and someone said that being black was a symbol of sin, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "whiteness" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for blacks would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a black man?

If I were Jewish and someone said that I was going to hell because I was Jewish, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "Christianity" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for Jews would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what would you think of that? Would you expect me to think very much of that person, as a Jew?

If I am gay and someone says that I'm going to hell because I am gay, and, as such, we should pass laws that encourage the "heterosexuality" of America as an ideal and that any civil rights for homosexuals would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization, what do you expect me to think of that? How am I supposed to think very much of that person?

Why must I make an extra effort to like people who clearly hate me, when we'd more than understand a black man hating a racist or a Jew hating an anti-Semite?

With that, I don't know if I truly hate anyone. But again, I've had to equip an inordinately high amount of willpower that I certainly don't see being reciprocated in this world.

Melon
I'll get to the "hell" part first. Has anyone who is still active in these forums ever said that you are going to hell because you are gay? I don't think I've ever read that from anyone.

I also don't think that any of us Christians who still actively post in this forum hate you. I don't even dislike you, and I am not attacking you as a person. What I think is sin is if you participate in homosexual sexual relations. I also think that any heterosexual who participates in sexual relations before or outside of marriage is committing sin. But I don't attack those people. I've never been married but I had a sexual relationship over a decade ago. That was sin, and I still commit other sins. I believe that everyone commits sin. Does that mean I am personally attacking everyone?

Yes, some "religious" people make it personal and attack gay people with verbal and physical assault, hatred, and other evils. But I don't, because I understand that you may have committed the sin of homosexual sin, but I have committed sins also, many that you probably haven't.

I can detach the sin from the person committing the sin. I really can, because I know that is what Christ did for me, by loving me and dying for me, even though I was guilt-stained with sin.
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:26 PM   #12
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Can a mod separate this thread into two pieces....my original post and relevant responses......
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Old 10-29-2006, 11:59 PM   #13
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80s, I don't think you fully addressed melon's post outlining the various situations akin to homosexuality.

Because he's right on the money.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I love God. It's His followers I could live without.

Melon
It really saddens me how religion has been exploited and abused by many. I'm hurt to think that people equate God's followers with hate. God is love! And God's followers should be reflections of that love.

But I can see why you would feel this way. Not all, but there are certainly some people who do some pretty nasty stuff in the name of God. And it is totally contradictory to what God is. And unfortunately, it appears they have monopolized the media's attention.

I feel awful that you and so many others feel this way. I hope that some day things will turn around. I hope that you know that there are loads of us out there who aren't like that. We're not as vocal about it, but that's because instead of talking smack in public, we're out there on our hands and knees working with people, volunteering, etc., and not isolating ourselves from them.

And there is definitely a place for you in modern Christianity! Any community would love to include you. You are brilliant and thoughtful, and your posts are inspiring and thought provoking.
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Old 10-30-2006, 12:34 AM   #15
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My pastor was wearing a T-shirt today while speaking that said "Save me Jesus...from the people following you."
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