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Old 11-02-2006, 10:02 PM   #106
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If there were laws against gluttony can you imagine how many Americans would be doing life??
Yeah. I would probably have to do some hard time myself. I've been dippin' into the kids' Halloween bowl...
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:06 PM   #107
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Yeah. I would probably have to do some hard time myself. I've been dippin' into the kids' Halloween bowl...
So you admit there's inconsistancies in the CC camp?
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:10 PM   #108
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So you admit there's inconsistancies in the CC camp?
Of course. We are not perfect. We are all doing our best to understand and apply God's will - just like any other religious group.
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Old 11-02-2006, 10:13 PM   #109
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Ted Haggard, one of the most prominent evangelical pastors in the nation, resigned today as president of the National Association of Evangelicals amid allegations that he carried on a three-year sexual relationship with a male prostitute.
Guess he just didn't pray to Jesus enough.

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Old 11-02-2006, 10:15 PM   #110
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Originally posted by AEON
Of course. We are not perfect. We are all doing our best to understand and apply God's will - just like any other religious group.
Of course, it's ever so convenient when those "imperfect agendas" happen to conform perfectly to a political ideology/party.

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Old 11-03-2006, 12:18 AM   #111
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I just showed you, if you can't see that that's condemning people then I'm sorry.
Good grief.

Look, I told Coemgen what "condemn" meant in that verse, and it is plain as day for you to read. According to that definition (and all others that I can think of), saying that an action is wrong does not equal "condemning someone".

Are you making up your own definition, BVS?
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:22 AM   #112
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Of course. We are not perfect.
It's the inconsistency that makes some of your positions sound extremely disingenuous, at least to me. The gay marriage one is the most obvious in the bunch, if you ask me.
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Old 11-03-2006, 12:48 AM   #113
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It's the inconsistency that makes some of your positions sound extremely disingenuous, at least to me. The gay marriage one is the most obvious in the bunch, if you ask me.
There is not a system on earth that someone could truthfully say is perfectly consistent.

In my journey, "conservative" Christianity is the most consistent belief system I've come across.
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:22 AM   #114
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A question - do "conservative" christians feel other non conservative christians ie that believ ein god but also believe in gay rights and abortion and all that jazz you obviously oppose. Do you feel they are not understanding their religion properly, or are a fairweather christian?

I know i've read that someone said that gay rights talk and teasing about religion coming from a non believer you don't care about but from other christians its wrong?

Why is that so? Can you not have a laugh at yourself (in the form of teasing?)
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:26 AM   #115
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A question - do "conservative" christians feel other non conservative christians ie that believ ein god but also believe in gay rights and abortion and all that jazz you obviously oppose. Do you feel they are not understanding their religion properly, or are a fairweather christian?

I know i've read that someone said that gay rights talk and teasing about religion coming from a non believer you don't care about but from other christians its wrong?

Why is that so? Can you not have a laugh at yourself (in the form of teasing?)
I can definitely laugh at myself.

I think there are many well-intentioned Christians that reach different conclusions than I do. I don't doubt their sincerity or their faith.
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:44 AM   #116
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Well thats nice to know.
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Old 11-03-2006, 03:11 AM   #117
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So, if we agree on a definition of hurt, then you would agree it would be okay to protect person A from hurting person A? Correct?
No, the right to do the stupid thing and be self destructive is a liberty that must be protected. When you step in and say that somebody can't hurt themselves it will only trample liberty. The most prevalent examples of this mentality are the war on drugs and the moves against junk food.

Secular reason is the basis of a just legal system. The innate sense of morality is the result of evolutionary psychology but it does not entail proportionality or in many cases logic. If we follow our innate sense of morality then laws will be primitive, the Sharia code for instance is religious law; in practice it delivers an enforcement of gender and minority divisions.

Laws derived from the no-harm principle can deliver a logical justice system that treats people regardless of creed equally rather than the theocratic system which is inherently punative against those who don't believe.

By establishing a dichotomy between absolutist and commonsense faith based rules and morality against broad stroke moral relativism you completely miss rules derived from logical axioms that are more objective than any religious morality.

Marriage is a legal contract between consenting adults, usually granting recognition to monogamous partners, as an institution for raising children it works, what possible reason should gays (who can also raise kids) not be allowed to enter into these same contracts.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:09 AM   #118
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
A question - do "conservative" christians feel other non conservative christians ie that believ ein god but also believe in gay rights and abortion and all that jazz you obviously oppose. Do you feel they are not understanding their religion properly, or are a fairweather christian?
To be honest, if I were to meet a Born Again Christian who says he supports abortion rights, it would disappoint me and shock me (and make me mad, though I might not show it). I would try to show him from the scripture how God feels about life in the womb.

If I were to meet someone who supports abortion rights and calls himself a Christian because he goes to church - in other words, a "religious" person - I would first work on showing him how to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, then I would show him from the scripture how God feels about life in the womb.
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Old 11-03-2006, 10:33 AM   #119
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No, the right to do the stupid thing and be self destructive is a liberty that must be protected. When you step in and say that somebody can't hurt themselves it will only trample liberty. The most prevalent examples of this mentality are the war on drugs and the moves against junk food.
As always A_w, you do bring up some compelling points. Many times, you ask questions that I have already asked myself, or am currently asking.

The right to harm oneself seemed like a no brainer to me. If someone wants to clog their hearts with fat – let them. If someone wants to punch holes in their brain with drugs – let them. How does the harm that these people perform on themselves have anything to do with me?

I have come to understand that everything we do - DOES impact those around us. As a secular humanist, I would think that you would see the fact that people who abuse drugs until the point that they can’t function, become a burden to society. They consume resources (time and money).

Let’s just say that a new drug came along that was way more powerful, more addictive than crack. Let’s say that it sweeps the nation and 40 million people become addicted to it. They quit their jobs, leave their families, and spend all of their remaining money on this drug. Does it not make sense to intervene in the lives of an individual (remember, the 40 million people are 40 million individuals) before he takes this drug? Can you not see the impact that these individual choices would have upon an entire society?

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Secular reason is the basis of a just legal system. The innate sense of morality is the result of evolutionary psychology but it does not entail proportionality or in many cases logic. If we follow our innate sense of morality then laws will be primitive, the Sharia code for instance is religious law; in practice it delivers an enforcement of gender and minority divisions.

Laws derived from the no-harm principle can deliver a logical justice system that treats people regardless of creed equally rather than the theocratic system which is inherently punative against those who don't believe.
Just so I clearly understand your point: when you say the “no-harm” principle, you are only referring to person A not harming person B – correct? If you are, then I think my paragraph above addresses this. If you are not, then I would like to know what you consider “harm.” Where does person A cross the line from “non-harm” to “harm” when he is acting upon person B?

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
By establishing a dichotomy between absolutist and commonsense faith based rules and morality against broad stroke moral relativism you completely miss rules derived from logical axioms that are more objective than any religious morality.

Marriage is a legal contract between consenting adults, usually granting recognition to monogamous partners, as an institution for raising children it works, what possible reason should gays (who can also raise kids) not be allowed to enter into these same contracts.
Well, I am going to purposely avoid the gay marriage question because the moderators have asked us to take a break from the issue.

Are you making the same mistake of creating a dichotomy between logic and faith? You are essentially throwing out all of the “logical axioms” that are inherent in Judeo-Christian theology. If you look at something as basic as the 10 commandments – they make logical sense. One by one, you can see how they benefit individuals as well as a society. Even if you strip all of that away – and you summarize the entire Bible with “love they neighbor” – it makes perfect logical sense to live this way.
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Old 11-03-2006, 01:05 PM   #120
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Good grief.

Look, I told Coemgen what "condemn" meant in that verse, and it is plain as day for you to read. According to that definition (and all others that I can think of), saying that an action is wrong does not equal "condemning someone".

Are you making up your own definition, BVS?
Do you even read my posts? I never said just saying an action is wrong is condemning? Where did I say that?

I said pushing for a law against this one action, yet none that would effect themselves is condemning.

Good grief.
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