it's His followers I could live without

[80sU2isBest]

Actually, I think the vast majority of people I know would identify as Christian, most of my family included. The degree of intensity varies though, from those who are probably just Christian because that's how they were raised, and they've never bothered to question, or think about it very deeply, to full-blow born-again evangelicals.

Identifying oneself as a Christian doesn't make one a Christian. According to the Bible, no one is a Christian because they were "raised that way" or because they attend a Christian church. Becoming a Christian is a concious choice that results in a completely changed spirit and nature. According to the Bible, the only kind of Christian is a "born again" Christian, be it a Catholic "born again" Christian, a Methodist "born again" Christian, a Baptist "born again" Christian, whatever.

 

[BVS]

According to the Bible, the only kind of Christian is a "born again" Christian,

The term "born again" in use with American culture and the Bible are two different things.

 

[VintagePunk]

Identifying oneself as a Christian doesn't make one a Christian. According to the Bible, no one is a Christian because they were "raised that way" or because they attend a Christian church. Becoming a Christian is a concious choice that results in a completely changed spirit and nature. According to the Bible, the only kind of Christian is a "born again" Christian, be it a Catholic "born again" Christian, a Methodist "born again" Christian, a Baptist "born again" Christian, whatever.

Yes, I'm aware of the definition of Christianity, but thanks.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Yes, I'm aware of the definition of Christianity, but thanks.

Then why did you post

"those who are probably just Christian because that's how they were raised, and they've never bothered to question"?

 

[80sU2isBest]

The term "born again" in use with American culture and the Bible are two different things.

What I posted was the Biblical definition of "born again".

 

[VintagePunk]

Then why did you post

"those who are probably just Christian because that's how they were raised, and they've never bothered to question"?

Unlike some, I don't believe that it is up to me to judge their level of religion, or their sincerity. If they identify as Christian, I am not about to argue with them, I accept it at face-value.

 

[BVS]

What I posted was the Biblical definition of "born again".

Um, I understand that, but you seemed to have misunderstood VintagePunk's post...

 

[80sU2isBest]

Unlike some, I don't believe that it is up to me to judge their level of religion, or their sincerity. If they identify as Christian, I am not about to argue with them, I accept it at face-value.

The fact that the term "Christian" is so often misunderstood, misapplied, and down-right misdefined is all the more reason to probe deeper than a mere label someone might apply to himself.

Fior instance, if I am starting to share the Gospel with someone, and he tells me "I'm a Christian", I'll try to find out exactly what he thinks a Christian is. If he's defining himself as a Christian simple because he was brought up in a Christian church, he needs to know that, according to the Bible, he's not a Christian.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Um, I understand that, but you seemed to have misunderstood VintagePunk's post...

Ok, what was the point of VintagePunk's post, and how does the following statement by you relate to it?

"the term "born again" in use with American culture and the Bible are two different things"

And VP, please don't answer this. I want BVS to tell me.

 

[BVS]

Ok, what was the point of VintagePunk's post, and how does the following statement by you relate to it?

"the term "born again" in use with American culture and the Bible are two different things"

And VP, please don't answer this. I want BVS to tell me.

The term "born again" usually refers to evangelical fundamentalists who emphasize their personal experience of conversion. Usually a conversion that happened later in life.

 

[phillyfan26]

So by your definition quoted from the Bible, many people who identify themselves with a religion are actually athiests?

 

[80sU2isBest]

So by your definition quoted from the Bible, many people who identify themselves with a religion are actually athiests?

I don't understand what makes you think I was saying that.

All Christians believe in God, but many people who believe in God are not Christians. "Believing in God" does not equal "being a Christian".

 

[80sU2isBest]

The term "born again" usually refers to evangelical fundamentalists who emphasize their personal experience of conversion. Usually a conversion that happened later in life.

The conversion experience you're speaking of is the "born again" experience, so it's only natural that they'd be called "born again".

Maybe the part that I am not understanding stems from this part of your statement:

"Usually a conversion that happened later in life."

In all the times that I've heard the media/society refer to born again Christians, I've never heard a distinction being made about when the conversion experience occurred. If that has something vital to do with your point, then that is why I may not be understanding you.

 

[phillyfan26]

My question is what do you call this person who believes in God, calls themselves a Christian, but does not meet that standard?

 

[80sU2isBest]

My question is what do you call this person who believes in God, calls themselves a Christian, but does not meet that standard?

I don't know what a technical term for it would be, I guess I'd call him "someone who believes in God". There are many groups of people who believe in God, and yet aren't Christians: Jews, Muslims, etc, as well as people who don't prescribe to any set system of beliefs about God, but believe that there is a higher power.

 

[BVS]

The conversion experience you're speaking of is the "born again" experience, so it's only natural that they'd be called "born again".

Maybe the part that I am not understanding stems from this part of your statement:

"Usually a conversion that happened later in life."

In all the times that I've heard the media/society refer to born again Christians, I've never heard a distinction being made about when the conversion experience occurred. If that has something vital to do with your point, then that is why I may not be understanding you.

A "born again" usually has a conversion experience that's almost overnight and usually later in life rather than growing up with it in their lives and coming to terms and growing in their faith. Usually resulting in more fundamental views.

 

[BVS]

I don't know what a technical term for it would be, I guess I'd call him "someone who believes in God". There are many groups of people who believe in God, and yet aren't Christians: Jews, Muslims, etc, as well as people who don't prescribe to any set system of beliefs about God, but believe that there is a higher power.

That's an extremely judgemental view. Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?

 

[80sU2isBest]

A "born again" usually has a conversion experience that's almost overnight and usually later in life rather than growing up with it in their lives and coming to terms and growing in their faith. Usually resulting in more fundamental views.

Becoming a Christian/being "born again" is instantaneous. Growing in faith is an ongoing process.

 

[80sU2isBest]

That's an extremely judgemental view. Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?

It's judgmental to say that someone who does not fit the Biblical definition of Christian is not a Christian? Is there any definition of Christian more accurate than the Christians' own holy book?

What if I call myself a Muslim? Would it be judgmental for you to say "According to the Koran, you are not a Muslim"? Of course not.

 

[BVS]

Becoming a Christian/being "born again" is instantaneous. Growing in faith is an ongoing process.

You're missing the point 80's. Are you honestly telling me you've never used term "born again" in this manner?

And no, it's not instantaneous for everyone.

 

[BVS]

It's judgmental to say that someone who does not fit the Biblical definition of Christian is not a Christian? Is there any definition of Christian more accurate than the Christians' own holy book?

No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction...

 

[nathan1977]

Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?

For me it's about trying to figure out what the common ground is, as well as learn about someone's spiritual journey. I'm always interested in people's stories anyway, so when someone says they're a Christian (which doesn't happen terribly often in our politically-charged world, especially where I live), I always like to hear how they met Jesus. It's always kinda cool to hear about how Jesus met someone.

If on the other hand, I'm talking with someone about my relationship with Jesus, and they look at me like I'm cross-eyed (and it's happened more than once), I know that there's a whole different conversation we're going to have. For me it's about learning to be sensitive.

To answer phillyfan's question, the defining element of Christianity is not simply believing in God, but in following Christ. Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

 

[80sU2isBest]

You're missing the point 80's. Are you honestly telling me you've never used term "born again" in this manner?

I'll answer your question as best as I can without the benefit of understanding it completely.

When I say "born again", I am specifically talking about what it is: that "changing from death to life", "new creation" "crucifying of the sin nature" "replacing with a new nature" experience that happens to someone when he becomes a Christian.

And no, it's not instantaneous for everyone.

According to the Bible, it is. I can show you verse after verse after verse, if you'd like.

Now remember, as I stated before, I am not referring to the "Christian walk" or "growing in faith", which is an ongoing process. I am talking about someone becoming a Christian.

 

[80sU2isBest]

No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction...

If the person tells me he is "born again", I take him at his word that he is a Christian. Or if he uses a description that is the same as "being born again", without using the actual term, I take him at his word.

But if the person says "I am a Christian" and I say "What makes you a Christian?" and he says "I believe in God and I go to church", then I'm seriously going to doubt that he is a Christian, because that is not how the Bible defines "Christian".

 

[BVS]

I'll answer your question as best as I can without the benefit of understanding it completely.

When I say "born again", I am specifically talking about what it is: that "changing from death to life", "new creation" "crucifying of the sin nature" "replacing with a new nature" experience that happens to someone when he becomes a Christian.

Yeah I meant to write, "Are you honestly telling me you've never heard the term "born again" used in this manner?

According to the Bible, it is. I can show you verse after verse after verse, if you'd like.

Now remember, as I stated before, I am not referring to the "Christian walk" or "growing in faith", which is an ongoing process. I am talking about someone becoming a Christian.

Well this is true, the Bible is written in present tense while Christ was on Earth. There were no people growing up in Christian homes all their lives. How can you expect a child of 7 to really know what he's saying or asking for when devoting a life to Christ?

 

[BVS]

But if the person says "I am a Christian" and I say "What makes you a Christian?" and he says "I believe in God and I go to church", then I'm seriously going to doubt that he is a Christian, because that is not how the Bible defines "Christian".

Well the person would be a moron if they thought going to church was all that was required, but that's not what was asked...

 

[80sU2isBest]

How can you expect a child of 7 to really know what he's saying or asking for when devoting a life to Christ?

I would think that most chidren of age 7 wouldn't understand everything that happens when a person becomes a Christian or as a result of being a Christian.

Children are perfectly capable of understanding how to become a Christian, if the Holy Spirit guides them. It is is not necessary that they know how the process works at the time. All they need to dow to be saved is believe that Christ died for their sins, confess and ask forgiveness for their sins, and ask Christ to be their Lord and Savior. God will do the changing - he will "crucify the sin nature", he will make them "new creations", bring them "from death to life" and send the Holy Spirit to live in them.

That being said, children have different understanding abilities, of course. One child of 7 may understand the basic simple message of salvation, while a child of 12 does not. I believe that children - and adults- will not be held accountable for what they can not understand.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well the person would be a moron if they thought going to church was all that was required, but that's not what was asked...

Many people, especially in American Society, DO think that, BVS. And I wouldn't say they are morons for believing it. Many of them were raised by parents who thought the same thing.

And it is relevant to what you were saying. You said:

"No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction... "

and I was giving you an example of a situation in which I would make a distinction.

 

[phillyfan26]

I have to agree that many people go to church just because that's what they think is required, and not much else. Several don't even go to church regularly, but still think they do enough.

But, what if I said, "I'm a Christian because I believe in God, I believe in what he teaches, and I do my best to follow his message and try to live as he teaches us?" Many do not know the phrase "born again."

 

[INDY500]

"Born Again" is mostly associated with evangelical Christians. As is adult baptism.

I believe these are the basic tenets of Christian believe;
The Bible is the word of God
Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Christ is the only way to salvation
Christ died an atoning death on the cross as full payment for our sins
The Holy Spirit indwells in every believer
Jesus Christ will return