it's His followers I could live without

[BVS]

There is not a system on earth that someone could truthfully say is perfectly consistent.

In my journey, "conservative" Christianity is the most consistent belief system I've come across.

this has to be the funniest post in a long time. I show you everyday how inconsistent it is, yet you usually ignore those post. I don't blame you, for it destroys the base of most of your arguments.

The point is not a perfect system, but one that is consistent, consistent doesn't mean perfect. But until CCs start pushing for moral laws that will actual effect them they really have nothing to stand on.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Do you even read my posts? I never said just saying an action is wrong is condemning? Where did I say that?

I said pushing for a law against this one action, yet none that would effect themselves is condemning.

Good grief.

Of course I read your posts. What you said was that being against homosexual marriage is condemning homosexuals. I said it is not. You have not shown me one iota of evidence to prove me wrong.

Good grief.

 

[BVS]

Of course I read your posts. What you said was that being against homosexual marriage is condemning homosexuals. I said it is not. You have not shown me one iota of evidence to prove me wrong.

Good grief.

Obviously you aren't reading my posts. Once again I said PUSHING FOR THE LEGISLATION is condemning, especially when you aren't pushing for any THAT WILL EFFECT YOURSELF!!!

Be against it all you want, I could care less, but when you take it the step further it's condemning. Don't fool yourself.

 

[martha]

and you summarize the entire Bible with “love they neighbor” – it makes perfect logical sense to live this way.

It doesn't say "Stick your nose into your neighbor's private business" does it?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Obviously you aren't reading my posts. Once again I said PUSHING FOR THE LEGISLATION is condemning, especially when you aren't pushing for any THAT WILL EFFECT YOURSELF!!!

Be against it all you want, I could care less, but when you take it the step further it's condemning. Don't fool yourself.

Jiminy Cricket, BVS, how many times do I have to say this? I freely admitted that it is condemning actions. What I said was that it not condemning the people who commit the action. You ahven't shown me how it is condemning people

I am tired of arguing this point with you. You are arguing against something I never said.

 

[BVS]

80's would you agree that singling out someone's sin as being worse than other's sin as condemning the person?

If not, then where is the line of condemning a person?

 

[AEON]

It doesn't say "Stick your nose into your neighbor's private business" does it?

No. It says love.

 

[80sU2isBest]

80's would you agree that singling out someone's sin as being worse than other's sin as condemning the person?

If not, then where is the line of condemning a person?

No, I would not agree. Pointing out a sin makes no condemnation of the person doing that sin at all, whether the person pointing out the sin says it's worse than his own or whether he doesn't make any comparison at all. It merely condemns the sin as a sin; it does not judge/condemn the person.

Now, if I were to say "You are a horrible person for having homosexual sex", that would be judging the person. If I were to say "you are going to go to hell for having homosexual sex", that would be condemning the person.

As for myself, I believe that every unforgiven sin has the same "spiritual consequence" - it separates a person from God. However, I would be a fool to think that every sin has the same "worldly consequence". For example, saying a curse word will have much less of a worldly consequence than murdering someone.

As far as "worldly consequence", I think there are many many sins worse than homosexual relations. Murder, rape, abuse, any sin fueled by hatred, I consider worse than homosexual relations.

I also consider adultery to be a worse sin than homosexual sex between two homosexuals who are not married to anyone. For the record, I would support a law against adultery. I think many states already have them. They are not enforced, but they're on the books.

There are many other sins I consider to be worse than homosexual sex.

 

[BVS]

No, I would not agree. Pointing out a sin makes no condemnation of the person doing that sin at all, whether the person pointing out the sin says it's worse than his own or whether he doesn't make any comparison at all. It merely condemns the sin as a sin; it does not judge/condemn the person.

80's, please read my posts carefully. I'm not talking about just pointing out a sin. I'm talking about the action of singling it out worse than others.

Now, if I were to say "You are a horrible person for having homosexual sex", that would be judging the person. If I were to say "you are going to go to hell for having homosexual sex", that would be condemning the person.

Isn't that what's going on right now in America?

As for myself, I believe that every unforgiven sin has the same "spiritual consequence" - it separates a person from God. However, I would be a fool to think that every sin has the same "worldly consequence". For example, saying a curse word will have much less of a worldly consequence than murdering someone.

Interesting, so do you believe as AEON believes that once you are a Christian all sins past, present, and future are forgiven?

For the record, I would support a law against adultery. I think many states already have them. They are not enforced, but they're on the books.

There are many other sins I consider to be worse than homosexual sex.

Well then don't you see the hypocricy of the CCs that aren't supporting these adultery laws?

Not to mention those men who remarry if their first wife didn't cheat on them.

And those poor women they have no right to divorce, according to the Bible.

 

[martha]

For the record, I would support a law against adultery. I think many states already have them. They are not enforced, but they're on the books.

How are you going to enforce that one? How much time will you spend in other people's bedrooms?!

 

[80sU2isBest]

80's, please read my posts carefully. I'm not talking about just pointing out a sin. I'm talking about the action of singling it out worse than others.

I addressed that when I typed:

"Pointing out a sin makes no condemnation of the person doing that sin at all, whether the person pointing out the sin says it's worse than his own or whether he doesn't make any comparison at all."

Okay, I used the phrase "worse than his own" instead of "worse than others", but it's the same idea.

Isn't that what's going on right now in America?

Not for the most part. I don't think most Christians say "homosexual sin will put you in hell" I think most Christians say "unforgiven sin will put you in hell".

Interesting, so do you believe as AEON believes that once you are a Christian all sins past, present, and future are forgiven?

Yes, that's what I believe.

don't you see the hypocricy of the CCs that aren't supporting these adultery laws?

If a Christian supports laws against homosexual marraige but doesn't support laws against adultery, then I believe that person is wrong. However, I don't know of any adultery laws that are being voted on.

Not to mention those men who remarry if their first wife didn't cheat on them.

Or women. In fact, according to Christ, a person isn't even allowed to file for divorce unless the spouse has committed adultery.

And those poor women they have no right to divorce, according to the Bible.

A woman can file for divorce if her husband has cheated on her, according to Christ.

 

[80sU2isBest]

How are you going to enforce that one? How much time will you spend in other people's bedrooms?!

This I what I would say: if a person has proof that that spouse committed adultery, the person can file charges and there would be a trial.

 

[martha]

This I what I would say: if a person has proof that that spouse committed adultery, the person can file charges and there would be a trial.

And the evidence presented in the trial is collected how?

 

[BVS]

I addressed that when I typed:

"Pointing out a sin makes no condemnation of the person doing that sin at all, whether the person pointing out the sin says it's worse than his own or whether he doesn't make any comparison at all."

Okay, I used the phrase "worse than his own" instead of "worse than others", but it's the same idea.

80's you aren't getting it, at all. Making a law against isn't merely pointing it out!!! Especially when you don't outlaw others. Why can't you get that? Making a law against isn't merely pointing it out!!!

Not for the most part. I don't think most Christians say "homosexual sin will put you in hell" I think most Christians say "unforgiven sin will put you in hell".

Guess we haven't been reading the same articles or watching the same TV.

Yes, that's what I believe.

So then why couldn't Christian homosexuals get married, they're protected?

And why do we still ask for forgiveness?

If a Christian supports laws against homosexual marraige but doesn't support laws against adultery, then I believe that person is wrong. However, I don't know of any adultery laws that are being voted on.

I don't see anyone calling for it as well. So the hypocricy is still there.

Or women. In fact, according to Christ, a person isn't even allowed to file for divorce unless the spouse has committed adultery.

No, it says men can only divorce if their wife commits adultery.

A woman can file for divorce if her husband has cheated on her, according to Christ.

It doesn't say that

 

[BostonAnne]

I and other Christians have been mocked and scolded by many people on this forum; from a NonChristian, it doesn't bother me a whole lot. But to get that kind of treatment from Christians goes against how the Bible says we are to treat other Christians. Christians are told to love each other, lift each other up and support each other. Public statements, mockings and insults made by a Christian against other Christians do nothing to improve any situation and certainly does not show love to his/her brethern.

So how, in the name of Love, can we be pushing legislature that condemns the lives of people, lots of them fellow Christians like Melon, simply over who they love intimately? Public statements, mockings and insults to our fellow Christian, Melon, are being made all of the time. Where is the love in taking a stance on hurting the lives of gay people by claiming they are "sinning"?

Why hold so dearly to the literal word of a few passages aimed at sexual preference when there is poverty in this world and many, many, many passages in the Bible stating how important it is to help the poor. Why can’t all Christians spend their energy helping the poor – not trying to take away rights or not give rights to someone over who they love?

Everyone is busy, everyone can’t spend time on every issue. But, if a Christian is to find themselves in a position to help make this world a better place – make this world a more loving place – then criticizing gay people and pushing laws that isolate them is certainly not the best way to do this. Helping people would make this world a better place. Whether that means being a big brother to a child that has no father figure, visiting a lonely elderly person that could use the company, preparing or serving food at a soup kitchen, lending a hand like shoveling a walkway or repairing a facuet for a person in need, raising money to build wells for people that have no water, or joining the campaign to eliminate poverty when we have the science, technology and wealth to make sure that a child does not need to die for lack of food in it’s belly. Helping people should be the common denominator for all Christians in their beliefs. Love thy neighbor.

So, I have to ask you 80sU2isBest (and others arguing in this thread), why are you spending your energy saying you don’t approve of giving gay people rights because of what the bible says, and then saying that you aren’t saying that they are going to hell or that you are condemning them or hating them or anything of the sort when in reality – your disapproval is differentiating gay people from yourself and eliminating the word “equal” and this is causing hurt and pain to gay people who just want to love and be loved. Why is it so important for some Christians to spend so much energy on it when all Christians, myself included, are not even in agreement in believing this to be right?

My thoughts are that perhaps the Christians that are arguing so fiercely about not giving gay people rights are perhaps the ones that are not showing love to his/her brethren. Where is the love in this argument to be right about not giving people a right to love who they want?

 

[anitram]

pushing laws that isolate them is certainly not the best way to do this.

Particularly when all these people here at FYM who are arguing against gay marriage have absolutely no judicially cognizable interest in the matter.

 

[A_Wanderer]

If you look at something as basic as the 10 commandments – they make logical sense

No they don't.

No graven images, holy Sabbath, no adultery and no coveting are pretty illogical.

 

[phillyfan26]

I have read much into this debate. My one question is this: is it more important to do the right thing, and love all your neighbors, and be faithful to God, and follow his commandments, or to tell others exactly how to do it? If someone asks for your belief, asks for your guidance, by all means tell them how you feel. But a part of religion is personal interpretation. Your interpretation of how the Bible should be followed, of how religion should be practiced, may not be in accord with that of others. So, I must ask, if a homosexual person hasn't asked for your opinion on whether his homosexuality is OK in the standards of God, why is it that you must tell him what you feel?

 

[dazzlingamy]

^ good point!

I think its much better for you to be happy within yourself, and have an unshaken belief, and not feel it your right to tell other people that they're wrong, or have this air like that (whether you feel that or not)

I may not understand how someone can put their faith in god, but i'm not trying to convert people, just trying to put a different view forward in a chorus of something more.

 

[deep]

Jiminy Cricket, BVS, how many times do I have to say this? I freely admitted that it is condemning actions. What I said was that it not condemning the people who commit the action. You ahven't shown me how it is condemning people

So are you good with someone who says "I am not against Jews,
It is just their Jewish practices or Jewish behavior that I am against."?

 

[BVS]

I want to ask an honest question, one I've asked several times...

So where is your true justification? Please show me????

 

[phillyfan26]

So are you good with someone who says "I am not against Jews,
It is just their Jewish practices or Jewish behavior that I am against."?

That's a very good point. It is really hard to say you're not condemning people.

 

[BVS]

**and then there was the sound of crickets**

 

[Dreadsox]

It doesn't say "Stick your nose into your neighbor's private business" does it?

When I am invited I do...

Wait...this is not an oral sex thread...my bad.

 

[martha]

When I am invited I do...

Wait...this is not an oral sex thread...my bad.

:spank:

 

[AEON]

No they don't.

No graven images, holy Sabbath, no adultery and no coveting are pretty illogical.

Really? Worshipping some piece of wood seems logical to you?

Having a day of rest seems illogical to you? Wouldn't modern psycholgy disagree with you on this?

Having affairs and sleeping around on your wife seems logical? How do you think that this can logically be explained to a wife who has caught her husband sleeping with another woman or vice-versa? How is it logically best for society or the people involved?

How does being jealous or envious of a friend seem like a raitonal, logical way to think about him?

 

[AEON]

That's a very good point. It is really hard to say you're not condemning people.

Do you have kids? If you do, then you will understand that you can still love your child witha ll of your heart even though you are upset be their behavior or cultural expressions.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Really? Worshipping some piece of wood seems logical to you?

Worshipping anything is illogical to me, but not morally or ethically wrong. Making a monotheistic God supreme to the exclusion of other beliefs is wrong.

Having a day of rest seems illogical to you? Wouldn't modern psycholgy disagree with you on this?

Having a holy day is wrong in this day and age, and as for a day of rest I would resent it if I was prevented from working on weekends.

Having affairs and sleeping around on your wife seems logical?

It might; dishonest to be sure but sex is part of human nature and following those urges may not always be a bad thing.

How do you think that this can logically be explained to a wife who has caught her husband sleeping with another woman or vice-versa? How is it logically best for society or the people involved?

I think it hurts feelings and can easily damage a relationship; but on the other hand some people live in open sexual relationships while remaining devoted to their partner - in those situations I don't see who has a right to judge.

How does being jealous or envious of a friend seem like a raitonal, logical way to think about him?

Because we aspire; wanting to achieve and get to that higher level is good, doing it is better. Desiring material goods and wealth is not bad.

 

[nathan1977]

Congratulations, A_W. You've successfully proven that anyone can rationalize away any activity, at any time, in any given circumstances. I mean, hey -- as long as we're at it, murder can be justified too, can't it? Theft? etc....

Which is exactly why laws are necessary.

I suppose the question is, which ones. But I don't think the Ten Commandments are a bad place to start.

Essentially, they can be summed up as:

"Hey, respect the people older than you instead of casting them aside.
"And while you're at it, you might want to avoid stealing your neighbor's stuff. (Want to know how to do that? Stop focusing on wanting everything he has.)
"And hey, try not murdering people.
"Perhaps honoring the marriage commitments between two people might be a good idea too.
"And given all of that, lying might be a bad idea as well."

I mean, these don't exactly set the bar high.

 

[VintagePunk]

Interesting, so do you believe as AEON believes that once you are a Christian all sins past, present, and future are forgiven?

Pretty convenient and self-serving system they have going there, isn't it? Do whatever you want, confess/ask for forgiveness, and it's all good, the slate is clean.