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Old 11-08-2006, 08:48 PM   #331
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Originally posted by Ormus


I think it's called, as AEON put it, "smoke and mirrors."
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:49 PM   #332
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Originally posted by AEON
Doesn't the Fall account for mutations, deformities, illness...etc. It is one of the foundations of Christian Theology.
It does not. That's an unsupported extrapolation from certain texts in the Bible. Even then, as I said, "the Fall" is a creation myth. Viruses and bacteria are the oldest forms of life (setting aside, for a moment, the semantic debate as to whether viruses actually constitute "life"), and if there were no such thing as "mutations," we'd still be nothing more than a pool of unchanging viruses and bacteria. A side effects of mutations is that there are "desirable" and "undesirable" mutations, but both of which are subjective in interpretation. After all, isn't a cornerstone of the pro-life movement that we don't have a right to terminate fetuses with "undesirable" mutations and/or deformities? Are you going to approach the parents of a child with Down's Syndrome and tell them that their child is a product of Satan, because that child doesn't have 48 chromosomes and normal intelligence? No, you accept that that child has his individual nature that's blessed by God, and you allow him to live his life according to his personal talents, abilities, and emotions. The fact that you cannot extend this same sympathy to sexual minorities shows your prejudices.

Quote:
Quite simply - there is the way things ought to be (Kingdom of God), and the way things are (the World).
And here's where you end up relying on your subjective, knee-jerk religious traditions, which I'm uninterested in.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:51 PM   #333
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Originally posted by AEON
I was only using the argument that you constructed.
And I'd venture to say that the average person who read that sentence understood it to be a hyperbole from the start.

I'd say that you probably did too, but were looking to nitpick.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:51 PM   #334
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AEON, your problem is that everything is so concrete with you. You don't allow for other interpretations, as I've shown, which you did not respond to. You take everything word for word, and ignore the context which Melon has shown time and again. You even took the hyperbole literally.

The context is important, and what Melon said made a lot of sense.
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:57 PM   #335
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Doesn't the Fall account for mutations, deformities, illness...etc. It is one of the foundations of Christian Theology.

Quite simply - there is the way things ought to be (Kingdom of God), and the way things are (the World).
No. That wouldn't make sense, for the first hetero sex and conception was after the fall, therefore by your logic all would be wrong.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:00 PM   #336
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No, the command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply was given pre-Fall, therefore there was sex in the garden.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:03 PM   #337
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
AEON, your problem is that everything is so concrete with you. You don't allow for other interpretations, as I've shown, which you did not respond to. You take everything word for word, and ignore the context which Melon has shown time and again. You even took the hyperbole literally.

The context is important, and what Melon said made a lot of sense.
It is one of the downfalls of essentialist Christian philosophy, which dominates conservative religious traditions. Such things as "context," "interpretation," and "intention" are considered irrelevant to the printed word.

It's this essentialism that cursed the Pharisees as depicted in the New Testament (and, for the sake of nuance, scholarship has demonstrated that the Biblical depiction of the Pharisees were mainly an anti-Semitic caricature to what they were really like). They were so busy looking at the literal, printed word that they were expecting a warrior king Messiah that would vanquish all of their enemies--religious, political, and otherwise--and create a worldly kingdom that would surpass the Roman Empire. Never mind that the "kingdom" was not a literal worldly kingdom and Jesus was never a "king" beyond a metaphor.

I consider this to be one of the greatest challenges that will face conservative Christianity in the coming centuries. If Jesus returns a second time, and does not turn out to be the warrior Messiah that vanquishes all non-believers, as they expect from the Book of Revelation, but rather a series of pacifist metaphors equivalent to that book, would they accept or reject Him? Or would they try to "crucify" Him?
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:24 PM   #338
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Originally posted by nathan1977
No, the command to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply was given pre-Fall, therefore there was sex in the garden.
Well actually that's up to debate, yes the command was made prior, according to Genesis, but many don't believe there's any evidence of sex prior to the fall.

Not that it means anything to me, but for those literalist I thought it would be worth discussing.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:00 PM   #339
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Originally posted by AEON


According to my theology, we are ALL born with a self-centered nature. It isn't a matter of choice, it is our nature.

Only supernatural intervention can transform us into people that live for God and others.
I think the key words here are "according to my theology."

Not everyone agrees with your theology, no matter what your 3rd year courses might say.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:14 PM   #340
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Originally posted by ZeroDude
Do I need to cite sources?

In regards to ‘sin’, I do believe that one has to take into account the fact that morality is often a subjective and culturally manipulated concept. So, to be honest, in my opinion, a lot of the more inter or intra-personal issues such as one’s sexuality should never be subjected to the same strict western, pseudo Judaeo-Christian morality system as murder, which in most historical cases, outside of sacramental sacrifices or other religious contexts, is, and has been, universally frowned upon.

Nevertheless, the above due to its admittedly flaccid nature, doesn’t hold water once people question said moral subjectivity beyond human reason. A response concerning the ethical or moral beliefs of a mass murderer would be expected in an attempt to undermine such comparatively rational thoughts.

Then again, if one equated the actions of a homosexual to those of a murderer, I wouldn’t hesitate in suggesting that such a person requires professional help.
You assert too much logic for this thread.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:19 PM   #341
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Originally posted by AEON



If you can’t see – from a “big picture” perspective, taking everything into consideration (pleasure, “fitting”, child birth, child raising, gender roles…all of it) – that Men are and Women are a better natural fit - then I have to say that you are simply deceiving yourself (or allowing yourself to be deceived).
As an agnostic, I see that since homosexuality is biological in nature, so that if there is a God, he made them too, so taking "everything" into consideration, then I have to simply say that perhaps it's your brand of Christianity that's wrong.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:20 PM   #342
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Is everything literal with you? Do you believe Bono actually climbed the highest mountain?
I do.
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:54 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON



If you can’t see – from a “big picture” perspective, taking everything into consideration (pleasure, “fitting”, child birth, child raising, gender roles…all of it) – that Men are and Women are a better natural fit - then I have to say that you are simply deceiving yourself (or allowing yourself to be deceived).

i'd say you don't know much about homosexual sex. and i fit far better with my boyfriend than with the two poor girls i tried it with when i was in college. (i hope they've forgiven me)

and since when is sex only about inserting body parts into openings? isn't that terribly reductive? what about expressions of love, touching, tasting, and the million other things that happen between two people when they have sex.

are we again reducing the mystery of sexuality to only penises and vaginas?
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:12 PM   #344
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Originally posted by Irvine511


and since when is sex only about inserting body parts into openings? isn't that terribly reductive?
Almost sounds like my experiences of casual sex are more valid than your experiences of loving, commited sex.
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:28 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
It isn't a matter of choice, it is our nature.
Where have I heard these very words before?

Yet when the gay and lesbian "sinners" use those words, it ain't true.
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