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Old 11-06-2006, 07:21 PM   #196
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


The conversion experience you're speaking of is the "born again" experience, so it's only natural that they'd be called "born again".

Maybe the part that I am not understanding stems from this part of your statement:

"Usually a conversion that happened later in life."

In all the times that I've heard the media/society refer to born again Christians, I've never heard a distinction being made about when the conversion experience occurred. If that has something vital to do with your point, then that is why I may not be understanding you.
A "born again" usually has a conversion experience that's almost overnight and usually later in life rather than growing up with it in their lives and coming to terms and growing in their faith. Usually resulting in more fundamental views.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:24 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I don't know what a technical term for it would be, I guess I'd call him "someone who believes in God". There are many groups of people who believe in God, and yet aren't Christians: Jews, Muslims, etc, as well as people who don't prescribe to any set system of beliefs about God, but believe that there is a higher power.
That's an extremely judgemental view. Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:32 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


A "born again" usually has a conversion experience that's almost overnight and usually later in life rather than growing up with it in their lives and coming to terms and growing in their faith. Usually resulting in more fundamental views.
Becoming a Christian/being "born again" is instantaneous. Growing in faith is an ongoing process.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:35 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That's an extremely judgemental view. Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?
It's judgmental to say that someone who does not fit the Biblical definition of Christian is not a Christian? Is there any definition of Christian more accurate than the Christians' own holy book?

What if I call myself a Muslim? Would it be judgmental for you to say "According to the Koran, you are not a Muslim"? Of course not.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:40 PM   #200
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Becoming a Christian/being "born again" is instantaneous. Growing in faith is an ongoing process.
You're missing the point 80's. Are you honestly telling me you've never used term "born again" in this manner?

And no, it's not instantaneous for everyone.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:42 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


It's judgmental to say that someone who does not fit the Biblical definition of Christian is not a Christian? Is there any definition of Christian more accurate than the Christians' own holy book?

No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction...
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:46 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Why can't you trust that someone who calls themself a Christian knows their relationship with God and leave it at that?
For me it's about trying to figure out what the common ground is, as well as learn about someone's spiritual journey. I'm always interested in people's stories anyway, so when someone says they're a Christian (which doesn't happen terribly often in our politically-charged world, especially where I live), I always like to hear how they met Jesus. It's always kinda cool to hear about how Jesus met someone.

If on the other hand, I'm talking with someone about my relationship with Jesus, and they look at me like I'm cross-eyed (and it's happened more than once), I know that there's a whole different conversation we're going to have. For me it's about learning to be sensitive.

To answer phillyfan's question, the defining element of Christianity is not simply believing in God, but in following Christ. Jesus said "not everyone who calls me 'Lord Lord' will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:49 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You're missing the point 80's. Are you honestly telling me you've never used term "born again" in this manner?
I'll answer your question as best as I can without the benefit of understanding it completely.

When I say "born again", I am specifically talking about what it is: that "changing from death to life", "new creation" "crucifying of the sin nature" "replacing with a new nature" experience that happens to someone when he becomes a Christian.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And no, it's not instantaneous for everyone.
According to the Bible, it is. I can show you verse after verse after verse, if you'd like.

Now remember, as I stated before, I am not referring to the "Christian walk" or "growing in faith", which is an ongoing process. I am talking about someone becoming a Christian.
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:53 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction...
If the person tells me he is "born again", I take him at his word that he is a Christian. Or if he uses a description that is the same as "being born again", without using the actual term, I take him at his word.

But if the person says "I am a Christian" and I say "What makes you a Christian?" and he says "I believe in God and I go to church", then I'm seriously going to doubt that he is a Christian, because that is not how the Bible defines "Christian".
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:57 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'll answer your question as best as I can without the benefit of understanding it completely.

When I say "born again", I am specifically talking about what it is: that "changing from death to life", "new creation" "crucifying of the sin nature" "replacing with a new nature" experience that happens to someone when he becomes a Christian.
Yeah I meant to write, "Are you honestly telling me you've never heard the term "born again" used in this manner?


Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

According to the Bible, it is. I can show you verse after verse after verse, if you'd like.

Now remember, as I stated before, I am not referring to the "Christian walk" or "growing in faith", which is an ongoing process. I am talking about someone becoming a Christian.
Well this is true, the Bible is written in present tense while Christ was on Earth. There were no people growing up in Christian homes all their lives. How can you expect a child of 7 to really know what he's saying or asking for when devoting a life to Christ?
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Old 11-06-2006, 08:00 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But if the person says "I am a Christian" and I say "What makes you a Christian?" and he says "I believe in God and I go to church", then I'm seriously going to doubt that he is a Christian, because that is not how the Bible defines "Christian".
Well the person would be a moron if they thought going to church was all that was required, but that's not what was asked...
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Old 11-06-2006, 08:10 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

How can you expect a child of 7 to really know what he's saying or asking for when devoting a life to Christ?
I would think that most chidren of age 7 wouldn't understand everything that happens when a person becomes a Christian or as a result of being a Christian.

Children are perfectly capable of understanding how to become a Christian, if the Holy Spirit guides them. It is is not necessary that they know how the process works at the time. All they need to dow to be saved is believe that Christ died for their sins, confess and ask forgiveness for their sins, and ask Christ to be their Lord and Savior. God will do the changing - he will "crucify the sin nature", he will make them "new creations", bring them "from death to life" and send the Holy Spirit to live in them.

That being said, children have different understanding abilities, of course. One child of 7 may understand the basic simple message of salvation, while a child of 12 does not. I believe that children - and adults- will not be held accountable for what they can not understand.
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Old 11-06-2006, 08:12 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well the person would be a moron if they thought going to church was all that was required, but that's not what was asked...
Many people, especially in American Society, DO think that, BVS. And I wouldn't say they are morons for believing it. Many of them were raised by parents who thought the same thing.

And it is relevant to what you were saying. You said:

"No one told you they didn't fit the defintion? You made that distinction... "

and I was giving you an example of a situation in which I would make a distinction.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:01 PM   #209
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I have to agree that many people go to church just because that's what they think is required, and not much else. Several don't even go to church regularly, but still think they do enough.

But, what if I said, "I'm a Christian because I believe in God, I believe in what he teaches, and I do my best to follow his message and try to live as he teaches us?" Many do not know the phrase "born again."
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Old 11-06-2006, 10:52 PM   #210
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"Born Again" is mostly associated with evangelical Christians. As is adult baptism.

I believe these are the basic tenets of Christian believe;
The Bible is the word of God
Jesus Christ is the Son of God
Christ is the only way to salvation
Christ died an atoning death on the cross as full payment for our sins
The Holy Spirit indwells in every believer
Jesus Christ will return
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