it's been 30 years - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-02-2003, 09:37 PM   #61
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,573
Local Time: 03:06 AM
Abortion is about a woman's right to privacy *and* the philosophical question of whether an embryo is human *and* the moral judgment of which side wins.

Personally I think that the embryo is a human life, or very possibly is, and that this possibility dictates that abortions be performed only in the most exceptional cases. Obviously a lot of people disagree.

In my opinion, the Supreme Court overstepped its authority in writing the Roe v. Wade opinion. It did not interpret the law, it wrote law. It effectively declared that the value of the embryo was such that it could be aborted for any reason during the first trimester, but perhaps not in later trimesters. The Supreme Court tried to make it look like it wasn't making arbitrary philosophical and moral judgments by framing its decision in terms of "the state's interest in protecting human life," but it was in fact making these arbitrary judgments.

The judgments mentioned above should not be made by the Court, but by the people (i.e. the individual states). The only way there should be a national judgment on abortion is if passes through Constitutional means, i.e. if three-fourths of the states of the Union decide to write an amendment on the issue. And if 38 states vote in favor of a Constitutional amendment making abortion legal nationwide, so be it.
__________________

__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 02-02-2003, 09:42 PM   #62
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Okey, I guess I have misread something. sorry, English is not my motherīs tongue.
No apology necessary. I appreciate the exchange of ideas. FYM is an excellent mental workout at times.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 02-02-2003, 10:00 PM   #63
Offishul Kitteh Doctor
Forum Moderator
 
bonosloveslave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Taking care of kitties
Posts: 9,655
Local Time: 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

bonosloveslave: did you mean that as an argument? Start to think again, before you type, please. Youīre not only throwing Hitler, slavery and abortion in the same category of crimes...

but also implying that abortion has the negative effect of keeping horrible crimes like incest and rape a secret.

I donīt think that keeping it a secret has to do with abortion, but with the evil ill mind of the raper and the child molester, and with the fear of the raped woman/ molested child.

Or are you trying to say that your potential thirteen year old daughter should "carry out" (sorry no dictionary) her pregnancy from a rape because you value the life of the baby?
Sorry if you think I'm spouting these arguments off the top of my head. I have mulled over these comparisons for quite some time, and it scares me that people *do not* see how similar they are. Sadly, history so often repeats itself and we do not learn from our mistakes.

Again - with the rape/incest issue - it is a very rare occurence that this is the reason that a woman seeks an abortion. Again, these are violent acts that people somehow think will be lessened with a second violent act. The cases I have looked at re. incest is that those girls that continue the pregnancy are finally able to break free of the torture of their male relative because now mom knows, people see a young girl pregnant and realize there must be something terribly wrong. I don't necessarily think these girls should keep those babies, and there are plenty of open arms willing to take it. If they do get an abortion it is almost always their father, brother, uncle taking them to get that abortion so that no one will find out and the cycle continues.
__________________
bonosloveslave [at] interference.com
bonosloveslave is offline  
Old 02-02-2003, 10:06 PM   #64
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer
The judgments mentioned above should not be made by the Court, but by the people (i.e. the individual states). The only way there should be a national judgment on abortion is if passes through Constitutional means, i.e. if three-fourths of the states of the Union decide to write an amendment on the issue. And if 38 states vote in favor of a Constitutional amendment making abortion legal nationwide, so be it.
Most people are pro-choice statistically. If we went by the popular vote, abortion would remain legal.

But should all issues boil down to popular sentiment? If it were up to popular sentiment in the late 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, black people would likely have remained marginalized. Just because it is the popular sentiment, does it make their will right?

(I ponder this question, as I see homophobic legislation and state amendments passed every year in several states.)

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 02-02-2003, 11:05 PM   #65
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

The argument in favor of abortion is that the woman is a victim of the pregnancy and that denying her the ability to kill the unborn child is a form of indentured servitude.

Ok. I see where you've gotten the "victimization" thing now.

But I totally reject it. Completely. Abortion rights are about women having physical, emotional, and economic control of their bodies, making the decisions that are theirs alone, without interference from any other person or entity. No one else has the right to decide whether I remain pregnant, get pregnant, or stop a pregnancy before it starts. Only I make that decision. If you think you would make a different decision, you live in a country that allows you that right. I live here, too. My body is not controlled by you.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 02-02-2003, 11:13 PM   #66
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
RU486 should become easier to find. It provides a quick solution to a POSSIBLE pregnancy.
Are you sure about this? Even proponents of RU486 point out that it is not a quick fix. The process takes several days from what I understand, and although it gives the woman the option to abort privately and non-surgically, it still has the same result as a surgical abortion. Also, RU486 is an abortifacient, *not* the so-called "morning after pill." It can only be used if it is confirmed that the woman is actually pregnant. I think you may have your facts a bit confused.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 02:04 AM   #67
Refugee
 
Danospano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,415
Local Time: 03:06 AM
My thoughts on the issue:

The government should not control what women OR men do to their bodies. However, we can agree that another human creation is given no rights in the matter. I happen to think that abortion is the act of killing another human. All people realize this, but the value of life and sustaining our current way of living make people greedy and selfish.

Yes, it is government sponsored genocide, but I wonder why more Americans aren't protesting the ruthless killings of Iraqi women. men and children due to unethical sanctions. That's another subject, but I think it shoots a hole in those who argue that the government shouldn't support the taking of innocent human life. It's doesn't make sense to protest one and never mention the other.

Last point: Let's say we make abortion illegal. What will happen. Let's think realistically. There will be an extra...what 50,000 children in the country? I don't know how many abortions are performed per year, but either way that adds up to a lot of hungry mouths. There will be more people and the same number of jobs.....therefore the future generations will have higher unemployment. All those new people may be abandoned in orphanages (let's face it: most of them will be), and taxes will be raised to support all these unwanted (more or less) people.

My solution: Since we don't know God's plan. He hasn't told us personally for all I know. We should set a global limit on number of children per marriage. IF you can afford to have 20 kids, you should have the right, but if you can't even afford to support yourself you shouldn't be allowed to have children. In our political system there should be regulations on how many children a couple can have...otherwise the entire world is going to get so incrediblly overpopulated that it will be a LIVING HELL>
__________________
Danospano is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 03:51 AM   #68
Paper Gods
Forum Administrator
 
KhanadaRhodes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: a vampire in the limousine
Posts: 60,609
Local Time: 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
There will be an extra...what 50,000 children in the country?
i'm not sure that number is totally accurate. i too don't know the actual statistics, but i'm sure some of that is when a woman has multiple abortions in a year. essentially, she wouldn't have gotten the other abortions had she carried the first pregnancy to full term.

while i am pro-choice, i can't understand why women who have an abortion continue to be so careless. to me it would be a wake up call, telling me i need to be more careful.

anyway, i thought i should also state my opinion on whether the fetus is a human, citizen, whatever. i didn't say it in the other thread and didn't think it applied since it hadn't been discussed as much as it is here.

i think after three months, the fetus starts to become a human. for all intents and purposes, a three month old fetus is a human, we'll say that. after three months, i don't think any woman should have an abortion. if you couldn't make up your mind in that much time, it's too late. the worst is over. but as long as the fetus is inside of me, it's the property of me. no one else. it's not the government's or anyone else's. it's 50% mine, and 50% the father's.

therefore, i wouldn't appreciate having the government telling me what i could do with my fetus. it's a citizen of the country of me, and no one else. it has no social security number, no birth certificate, nothing.
__________________
KhanadaRhodes is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 09:15 AM   #69
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Ok. I see where you've gotten the "victimization" thing now.

But I totally reject it. Completely. Abortion rights are about women having physical, emotional, and economic control of their bodies, making the decisions that are theirs alone, without interference from any other person or entity. No one else has the right to decide whether I remain pregnant, get pregnant, or stop a pregnancy before it starts. Only I make that decision. If you think you would make a different decision, you live in a country that allows you that right. I live here, too. My body is not controlled by you.
Okay, so if you determine that another life adversely affects your physical, emotional or economic state of being, you can kill it.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 09:25 AM   #70
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


another life
If this is what you believe, you can think that. Once again, since you believe this is true, please do not assume that I do. If you believe this, and project your beliefs onto me, then you have imposed your beliefs on me. If you'd like to call this "victimization," then do so. Fortunately, we both live in a country where we are free to believe what we like. Even more fortunately, we both live in a state which has a constitution that guarantees that each of us has a right to privacy. I can't have any say in what you believe, and you can't have a say in what I do in my doctor's office to my own body.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 09:27 AM   #71
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
We should set a global limit on number of children per marriage. IF you can afford to have 20 kids, you should have the right, but if you can't even afford to support yourself you shouldn't be allowed to have children. In our political system there should be regulations on how many children a couple can have.
How did China do with your plan? Have you asked Chinese women about this?

It didn't work in India because the gender targeted for forced sterilization was men.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 10:16 AM   #72
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave


Sorry if you think I'm spouting these arguments off the top of my head. I have mulled over these comparisons for quite some time, and it scares me that people *do not* see how similar they are. Sadly, history so often repeats itself and we do not learn from our mistakes.

Again - with the rape/incest issue - it is a very rare occurence that this is the reason that a woman seeks an abortion. Again, these are violent acts that people somehow think will be lessened with a second violent act. The cases I have looked at re. incest is that those girls that continue the pregnancy are finally able to break free of the torture of their male relative because now mom knows, people see a young girl pregnant and realize there must be something terribly wrong. I don't necessarily think these girls should keep those babies, and there are plenty of open arms willing to take it. If they do get an abortion it is almost always their father, brother, uncle taking them to get that abortion so that no one will find out and the cycle continues.
Ok, good arguments for the rape/ incest issue.

But still, I canīt understand how you can compare the decision of Hitler to send 6 millions of Jews (or others) into a concentraion camp, to put gas douches on,... I will not continue with that; anyway I donīt understand how you can compare this crime to an abortion. No way.

Have you been to Europe? If you go, please visit a concentration camp/ museum. There are still a very few survivors who will tell you stories like they got treated with a whip when they were not working fast enough, then in the evening they were sleeping on the cold floor, and the blood on their back was freezing onto the floor, so the next morning they had to be ripped off the floor in order to go to work again.

Have you seen the great, four hour long, film by Steven Spielberg? It gives you only a glimpse of what was going on.

I think, as cruel as an abortion may be, it canīt be equalled with the crimes that were committed to those who "lived" and were burned alive in concentration camps. This was one of the worst crimes in history, Beth.

Maybe abortion is killing, and maybe it is very cruel - but you canīt put those two in the same row.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 11:25 AM   #73
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


If this is what you believe, you can think that. Once again, since you believe this is true, please do not assume that I do. If you believe this, and project your beliefs onto me, then you have imposed your beliefs on me. If you'd like to call this "victimization," then do so. Fortunately, we both live in a country where we are free to believe what we like. Even more fortunately, we both live in a state which has a constitution that guarantees that each of us has a right to privacy. I can't have any say in what you believe, and you can't have a say in what I do in my doctor's office to my own body.
Okay. As always, it comes down to two questions:

1. "What is a human life?"

2. "Who gets to decide?"

And in dealing with these questions, why should anyone prevent a parent from killing a 3-year old?




On a separate note, I realize this subject can lead to very intense debate with great passions on both sides. No one has changed their position completely by these debates, but, hopefully, we all think a little more about the ideals and beliefs we hold.

Thank you all.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 11:25 AM   #74
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: adrift on a breeze in Tennessee
Posts: 692
Local Time: 04:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Discoteque
An interesting sidenote I heard on the radio recently: PETA is willing to pay a quarter of a million dollars to those who will use human embryos/fetuses to use scientifically for testing, rather than on ANIMALS.

HOW DID WE GET SO UPSIDE DOWN IN OUR VALUES? [/B]
Actually - I personally think that our treatment of animals illustrates how inhumane humans can be. Since even our closest genetic relations do not have the same reactions as we do, I find it appalling that we can continue to allow companies to 'practice' on animals as if they were expendable and without feeling. Anybody here have pets? Then you know that animals form relationships and feel emotions and pain.

As Ghandi said, “"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated."

I personally could never have an abortion, but I also feel like I could never make that choice for anyone else. I think that anyone who feels some right to make a choice for someone else is seriously misguided. If you do not want to be involved in a decision regarding abortion, then do exactly what Disco suggested - abstinence is the only fail proof method. For men - if you have sex and use a condom, then you have already made your decision. The rest of the process falls on the woman.

If true progress is to be made in medicine and abortions are going to happen, then why not have some good come out of it? I hardly think that woman are going to run around getting pregnant, just so they can have an abortion, just so they can produce human cells for testing.

As far as genetic manipulation and cloning goes – a natural process of evolution is the only way we can be sure that the strongest and fittest survive. In nature you will find that what is pretty is deadly and what is nice is usually weak.

Whatever supreme being you may subscribe to - the only thing you can count on is that we have free will and we have to excercise it with care.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
__________________
YellowKite is offline  
Old 02-03-2003, 11:26 AM   #75
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,337
Local Time: 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Ok, good arguments for the rape/ incest issue.


No, it really isn't. Destroying the village in order to save it shouldn't be applied to this situation. Does the girl have no say at all in what happens to her. Using the thought that the perpetrator may misuse the procedure doesn't mean that the choice should be taken away from the girl who is forced to carry the child.

Whenhiphop...I know this wasn't your arguement.
__________________

__________________
martha is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright ÂĐ Interference.com