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Old 09-17-2006, 10:09 PM   #46
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Originally posted by yolland

I'll cite your source for you, lest anyone get the impression that you actually know these texts and researched the sources yourself.

Look, I'm not going to attempt to fact-check and contextualize every last sura, hadith or sira you might cut and paste from whatever polemicist website; I have neither the expertise nor the time for that. This is an intellectually cowardly and disingenuous way to argue. I might just as well ask you to go through all of this and explain how it does not show that Christendom has a long history of anti-Semitic violence to answer for. Or I could pluck select distasteful chapters from the history of "Western" imperialism, including in the Middle East, and ask you to answer to the various aggrieved parties for that. But this isn't necessary, because I understand that it's unfair to tar an immense and complex religio-cultural legacy for things that are best understood in the context of regional history, theocratic imperialism, social and political evolution, and a long, long list of other relevant phenomena. I do not, though, consider facile rationalizations to the effect of "Well they weren't 'true Christians' " or "the Christian ideal has been found difficult and left untried" to be adequate explanations for all these things, and I wouldn't expect anyone to consider the Muslim equivalent of such rationalizations adequate either. However, when you treat scriptural support (or lack of it) as sufficient case for passing such blanket judgments, you are backing your opponents into a corner and pretty much guaranteeing that unworkable conclusions like "Christians are inevitably unreliable hypocrites" or "Muslims are inevitably called to slaughter" will result. It's a worthlessly defeatist strategy. If you are serious about "knowing your enemy," and have a constructive end in mind for doing so, you will not rely on such arguments. Yes, theologically derived ideologies (scriptural or not) must be contended with, but so must historical, political, economic, demographic and cultural factors. Peace is a worldly matter and needs to be pursued in a worldly fashion.
Yolland - maybe I'm confused, but I think there is a difference between discussing various civilizations and cultures, and discussing what different religions actually teach.

I think there is a clear difference between what Jesus taught and the way Jesus lived his life and what Mohammed taught and the way Mohammed lived his life.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:19 PM   #47
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This is an intellectually cowardly and disingenuous way to argue.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:20 PM   #48
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As far as I can see the only way this kind of shit stopping is for the entire Islamic faith to grow out of it's shell because it's more extreme than the conservative Christian right in this country as I see it.
What does this mean?
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:23 PM   #49
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Originally posted by yolland

I'll cite your source for you, lest anyone get the impression that you actually know these texts and researched the sources yourself.

Look, I'm not going to attempt to fact-check and contextualize every last sura, hadith or sira you might cut and paste from whatever polemicist website; I have neither the expertise nor the time for that. This is an intellectually cowardly and disingenuous way to argue. I might just as well ask you to go through all of this and explain how it does not show that Christendom has a long history of anti-Semitic violence to answer for. Or I could pluck select distasteful chapters from the history of "Western" imperialism, including in the Middle East, and ask you to answer to the various aggrieved parties for that. But this isn't necessary, because I understand that it's unfair to tar an immense and complex religio-cultural legacy for things that are best understood in the context of regional history, theocratic imperialism, social and political evolution, and a long, long list of other relevant phenomena. I do not, though, consider facile rationalizations to the effect of "Well they weren't 'true Christians' " or "the Christian ideal has been found difficult and left untried" to be adequate explanations for all these things, and I wouldn't expect anyone to consider the Muslim equivalent of such rationalizations adequate either. However, when you treat scriptural support (or lack of it) as sufficient case for passing such blanket judgments, you are backing your opponents into a corner and pretty much guaranteeing that unworkable conclusions like "Christians are inevitably unreliable hypocrites" or "Muslims are inevitably called to slaughter" will result. It's a worthlessly defeatist strategy. If you are serious about "knowing your enemy," and have a constructive end in mind for doing so, you will not rely on such arguments. Yes, theologically derived ideologies (scriptural or not) must be contended with, but so must historical, political, economic, demographic and cultural factors. Peace is a worldly matter and needs to be pursued in a worldly fashion.

I respectfully disagree.

There is a difference between in what is being taught (to some Muslims about the Quran and what is being taught to Christians about the Bible (the NO). The NO was hardly brought up in my church for example. And she was a Christian nun...

What Jesus taught. What Mohammed taught..

I haven't read the Torah and I haven't read the Quran. But I actually appreciate the point of what was being made with the source of cut and paste...even if only 10% of what is there is the true. And I had never read any of that before....and even out of context it does communicate quite a bit.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:27 PM   #50
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Originally posted by yolland
toscano, none of the passages you cited are from the Koran. "Ishaq," or more correctly the Surat Rasul Allah of Iban Ishaq, is a sira or biography of Muhammad. The killing of the poetess recounted in 676 is generally considered a fabrication because it derives from an account of al-Hajaj, who was known for forging hadiths.
Weren't there other hadiths that recounted the same story by a different poet?
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:32 PM   #51
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Originally posted by yolland


Look, I'm not going to attempt to fact-check and contextualize every last sura, hadith or sira you might cut and paste from whatever polemicist website; I have neither the expertise nor the time for that.
A lot of people post here incessantly, and then claim "no time" when asked to go and back up what they have to say. You were certainly quick to come in and show expertise (or spent the time to research) when passages not in the koran were posted. I guess there's no debate this time on that matter, if you want to provide context, you're free to do so. I don't have the time to research them either.




Muslims around the world continue to show me Islam is anything but areligion of peace. If mulsim leaders want to speak out, renounce violence, promote tolerance of Pope's and Danish cartoonists, and change that perception, I'd be happy to listen. Until then, it's headlines like this will continue to do the talking

http://catholiclondoner.blogspot.com...shed-post.html


http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...0600010001.htm
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:33 PM   #52
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Great post yolland!!

And as a non-Muslim and non-Christian, I am shocked at the blanket statements against Muslims by some people on this board.

If you want an understanding of Islam, I challenge you to go visit a mosque, go talk to an Imam, go chat with a religious studies professor but don't depend on some of the garbage posted on the internet by ignorant people. Go rent the 30 Days DVD and watch the episode where the guy who hates Muslims spends 30 days in a Michigan neighbourhood living with a Muslim family to learn what Islam really is as opposed to what the extremists project. If you let your view of Islam be what the terrorists claim it is, then you are their victim too. They want you to feel distrust and contempt for them, it adds to their ability to inflict fear on your society.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:39 PM   #53
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Originally posted by toscano


A lot of people post here incessantly, and then claim "no time" when asked to go and back up what they have to say. You were certainly quick to come in and show expertise (or spent the time to research) when passages not in the koran were posted. I guess there's no debate this time on that matter, if you want to provide context, you're free to do so. I don't have the time to research them either.

You don't even know what you're posting, you're just stealing it from other websites(then not even citing your sources). So honestly there is no real debate here. You attack people for things they've never claimed. If this was a real debate you would have been disqualified from the very beginning.
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Old 09-17-2006, 10:54 PM   #54
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Originally posted by trevster2k
Great post yolland!!

And as a non-Muslim and non-Christian, I am shocked at the blanket statements against Muslims by some people on this board.

If you want an understanding of Islam, I challenge you to go visit a mosque, go talk to an Imam, go chat with a religious studies professor but don't depend on some of the garbage posted on the internet by ignorant people. Go rent the 30 Days DVD and watch the episode where the guy who hates Muslims spends 30 days in a Michigan neighbourhood living with a Muslim family to learn what Islam really is as opposed to what the extremists project. If you let your view of Islam be what the terrorists claim it is, then you are their victim too. They want you to feel distrust and contempt for them, it adds to their ability to inflict fear on your society.

I bought the episode on Itunes. It was a good episode, but I still have see no effort in the muslim community to stop this insanity from with in their own religion.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:00 PM   #55
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You don't even know what you're posting,
you're just stealing it from other websites(then not even citing your sources). So honestly there is no real debate here. You attack people for things they've never claimed. If this was a real debate you would have been disqualified from the very beginning.
Well then I'm lucky the debate police aren't patrolling this neighborhood then aren't I ?

I posted information, I never claimed it was mine, what you choose to do with it is your own business.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:00 PM   #56
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but I still have see no effort in the muslim community to stop this insanity from with in their own religion.
Really?

So all those Muslims here in America who mourned with everyone else on 9/11, all of those Muslims here in America are secretly cheering?

You may not see a lot of outspoken Muslims in the Middle East right now, but fearing for your life if you spoke out may do that to some.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:04 PM   #57
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Really?

So all those Muslims here in America who mourned with everyone else on 9/11, all of those Muslims here in America are secretly cheering?

You may not see a lot of outspoken Muslims in the Middle East right now, but fearing for your life if you spoke out may do that to some.
In fear of their life because ? Oh yes.......

Still, at least you're back to making assumptions, well, on the way anyway. Speculations are just the distant cousin of the assumption
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:04 PM   #58
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I never said all muslims, but the need to change things around, and I know your going to argue that that it's impossible, etc...
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:09 PM   #59
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In fear of their life because ? Oh yes.......
Yeah, because a minority of their religion live in hate and use a bastardized version of their faith to justify it.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:12 PM   #60
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Weren't there other hadiths that recounted the same story by a different poet?
None that don't also rely on al-Hajaj's account, that I could find. Anyhow the documents in question are sira, not hadiths.
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Yolland - maybe I'm confused, but I think there is a difference between discussing various civilizations and cultures, and discussing what different religions actually teach.

I think there is a clear difference between what Jesus taught and the way Jesus lived his life and what Mohammed taught and the way Mohammed lived his life.
Yes, of course there is, they lived in very different historical, political and cultural circumstances and negotiated those in very different ways; as a man Jesus was quite strictly a prophet calling for religious reform, Muhammad was obviously something more than that, he was also a political and military leader.

My point is that it's fruitless to use scripture as a real world-guide to the limits of how adherents of a particular religion can be expected to behave. Care to offer a historically verifiable argument that Muslims are categorically incapable of political compromise or social reform because selected passages from their scriptures appear to denounce these things? Care to offer a historically verifiable argument that Christians are categorically incapable of slaughter or racism because selected passages of their scriptures appear to do the same? It's a pointless endeavor. Attempting to reduce atrocities committed by particular Muslims to some sort of innate theological imperative, so why expect otherwise from their brethren, only invites the retort of pointing out that Christians have not historically lived up to their purportedly superior imperatives, so why expect otherwise from theirs. It's a diplomatic dead-end.
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