Italian nun shot dead by Somali gunmen

[toscano]

Yeah, because a minority of their religion live in hate and use a bastardized version of their faith to justify it.

But is it a bastardized version, or is truly part of their faith ?

Some would say the latter; time will tell

From www.jihadwatch.org


JIHAD IS A CENTRAL DUTY of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But in Islamic history and doctrine violent jihad is founded on numerous verses of the Qur'an — most notably, one known in Islamic theology as the "Verse of the Sword": "Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful" (Sura 9:5). Establishing "regular worship" and paying the "poor-due" (zakat) means essentially that they will become Muslim, as these are two of the central responsibilities of every Muslim.

Sahih Bukhari, which Muslims regard as the most trustworthy of all the many collections of traditions of Muhammad, records this statement of the Prophet: "Allah assigns for a person who participates in (holy battles) in Allah's Cause and nothing causes him to do so except belief in Allah and in His Messengers, that he will be recompensed by Allah either with a reward, or booty (if he survives) or will be admitted to Paradise (if he is killed in the battle as a martyr)."

Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), a pioneering historian and philosopher, was also a legal theorist. In his renowned Muqaddimah, the first work of historical theory, he notes that "in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with "power politics," because Islam is "under obligation to gain power over other nations."

Violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. The passages quoted above and many others like them form a major element of the motivation of jihad warriors worldwide today. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, with all its assumptions about unbelievers‚ lack of human rights and dignity, is available today as a justification for anyone with the will and the means to bring it to life.

 

[yolland]

If mulsim leaders want to speak out, renounce violence, promote tolerance of Pope's and Danish cartoonists, and change that perception, I'd be happy to listen.

These are reasonable outcomes to hope for and work towards (although "muslim leaders" are an ill-defined, jurisdictionally diffuse, and selectively reported upon lot); wholesale denunciations of their own scriptures are not.

If Western leaders including the Pope are willing to speak out against blanket denunciations of Islam, decisively and without mass death of civilians address the quagmire that Iraq and Afghanistan have become, get firmly back behind the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations process, and stop tacitly overlooking the despotism of various Muslim political "allies," I'm sure plenty of Muslims would be more happy to listen as well.

Originally posted by yolland
This is an intellectually cowardly...way to argue.

And I apologize for saying this. I was annoyed that you responded to my point about randomly culling scriptural passages to collectively smear an entire faith group by posting more randomly culled passages. But this much was uncalled for.

 

[BVS]

But is it a bastardized version, or is truly part of their faith ?

Some would say the latter; time will tell

From www.jihadwatch.org

What else do you expect from a website called jihadwatch?

If it's truly part of their faith, then why aren't more joining the cause? I mean they make up 22% of the world, they could do quite a bit of damaged if was truly part of their faith.

 

[Justin24]

Yeah small minority, which the rest of islam does nothing about until they feel there being harrassed by people who want to put an end to it. And when that happens that small minority grows because the Rest do nothing.

 

[BVS]

Yeah small minority, which the rest of islam does nothing about until they feel there being harrassed by people who want to put an end to it. And when that happens that small minority grows because the Rest do nothing.

Do you stereotype all groups based on a minority or just Muslims?

I would hate to be Muslim these days. You speak out, you get killed, you stay quiet and the rest of the world hates you.

And they are the inhumane ones?

 

[Justin24]

I don't sterotype. Do you know why they get killed because the rest of the faith are to afraid to stand up to these vile humans. They don't have the guts like Gahndi. MLK, Malcom X etc... If the showed that they know how to take care of the bad eggs then maybe they would get more respect.

 

[BVS]

I don't sterotype. Do you know why they get killed because the rest of the faith are to afraid to stand up to these vile humans. They don't have the guts like Gahndi. MLK, Malcom X etc... If the showed that they know how to take care of the bad eggs then maybe they would get more respect.

Yes you do. But I guess it's pretty easy to stand on moral superiority when you are living in the comfort of your home half a world away.

 

[Justin24]

If you are so moral and never tell a lie, then admit that you have never stereotyped. I am comfortable living in my place. I also go out and help others too. I go help at soup kitchens take cloths to cloth the poor. Have you done the same?

 

[BVS]

If you are so moral and never tell a lie, then admit that you have never stereotyped.

Being moral doesn't mean someone is perfect. I never claimed I haven't lied. But no I don't stereotype.

I am comfortable living in my place. I also go out and help others too. I go help at soup kitchens take cloths to cloth the poor. Have you done the same?

That's great, but these things don't erase the judgements you make in here.

And yes...

 

[Justin24]

Yes I have made Judgements but dont think for a second you have never made judgements either.

 

[BVS]

Yes I have made Judgements but dont think for a second you have never made judgements either.

I never claimed I haven't, but never have I judged a religion as a whole.

 

[A_Wanderer]

And we wonder why we should be educated about other religions?!

Know your enemies.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What else do you expect from a website called jihadwatch?

If it's truly part of their faith, then why aren't more joining the cause? I mean they make up 22% of the world, they could do quite a bit of damaged if was truly part of their faith.

The AQ Khan network has spawned the arsenel, it is probably only a matter of time.

 

[AEON]

The essence of Christianity summarized by one woman's life and death -

(AP) NAIROBI, Kenya — A nun shot four times at the Somali hospital where she worked forgave her killers as she lay dying, colleagues said Monday in the wake of her slaying, which has focused attention on Islamic radicalism in the Horn of Africa.

Sister Leonella, 65, muttered the words "I forgive, I forgive" in Italian after being shot by gunmen Sunday, the Rev. Maloba Wesonga told The Associated Press at a memorial Mass for the nun in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi.

Her killing was not a random attack and could have been sparked by remarks by Pope Benedict XVI about Muslims that have sparked angry reaction from Muslims around the world, said Willy Huber, regional head of the Austrian-funded hospital where Sister Leonella worked.

Sister Leonella, whose birth name was Rosa Sgorbati, had lived and worked in Kenya and Somalia for 38 years, her family said-"

 

[Irvine511]

Jesus is better than Mohammad!

Christianity is better than Islam!

Christians are better than Muslims!

Nyah-Nyah!






(i can't believe some of the posts in this thread)

 

[Irvine511]

Know your enemies.

it's really beginning to look that way.

every time i start to feel more comfortable with the devout, and in the US that's usually Christians, a whole bunch of ethnocentrist bullshit is pulled out by people who are jonesing for a big, bad enemy they're going to use to self-define their own sense of moral and intellectual superiority.

the problem is religion. any religion. shame on anyone for thinking they're the exception rather than the rule.

 

[AEON]

Jesus is better than Mohammad!

Christianity is better than Islam!

Christians are better than Muslims!

Nyah-Nyah!






(i can't believe some of the posts in this thread)

Since you seem very upset about many of the posts - mad enough to spit on them - could you please explain your position?

Specifically, I would like to see what your understanding is about Islam and Christianity. Please offer us a summary of what Jesus taught and what Mohammed taught.

Otherwise this just seems childish - like an online "nanny nanny boo boo."

 

[AEON]

it's really beginning to look that way.

every time i start to feel more comfortable with the devout, and in the US that's usually Christians, a whole bunch of ethnocentrist bullshit is pulled out by people who are jonesing for a big, bad enemy they're going to use to self-define their own sense of moral and intellectual superiority.

It is quite arrogant to judge someone's motivation for their beliefs. I have two children that I want to grow up in a country without Sharia law - sorry if I feel that freedom and democracy are morally and intellectually superior.

There is nothing "ethnocentric" about condemning what the Koran teaches. Some of the greatest, earliest churches were founded in Turkey.

the problem is religion. any religion. shame on anyone for thinking they're the exception rather than the rule.

So all religion is evil? Is that what you’re saying? If so, please explain how you have come to this conclusion – since there is a quite a bit of differences between all of them.

 

[Irvine511]

Since you seem very upset about many of the posts - mad enough to spit on them - could you please explain your position?

Specifically, I would like to see what your understanding is about Islam and Christianity. Please offer us a summary of what Jesus taught and what Mohammed taught.

Otherwise this just seems childish - like an online "nanny nanny boo boo."

nah, if i were to "offer a summary" to the board, anything that might cast Jesus in a less than positive light would be inaccurate, and anything that might possibly cast Islam in a positive light would be biased.

what's going on is that a few people on this board obviously feel very threatened by the very legitimate complaints about conservative Christianity as practiced in the US and how it is often manifested in American politics, so they are turning around and pointing at radical Islam and saying, in effect, "see, now THAT'S bad."

it's all crap. if you need to justify your religon to yoruself through the denigration of another, you're free to do so.

and i'm free to mock your "arguments" or "discussion" because there's really very little of that going on in here, with the exception of Yolland's posts which have so effectively deflated the little balloons of self-righteousness that have been huffed and puffed into with so much hot air.

ultimately, Christianity and Islam are really not very different -- they are RELIGIONS. they're attempts to explain the unexplainable, to try to know what cannot be known, and who's imaginary friend is better.

 

[Irvine511]

It is quite arrogant to judge someone's motivation for their beliefs. I have two children that I want to grow up in a country without Sharia law - sorry if I feel that freedom and democracy are morally and intellectually superior.

yes, your children are just a step away from living in Talibanized Afghanistan.

you know i've gone to great lengths to explain, that, yes, i do think the American way of life (or Western way of life) is, at it's core, better than a theocracy (though i'm not willing to torture to prove that point), however it's such a straw man to think that the United States is anywhere near having it's way of life converted to Sharia law.

in the US, i have way, way, way more to fear from the American Taliban than i do from the actual Taliban. i'm far more likely to get my head bashed in by some thug than i am to be attacked by a terrorist.



[q]There is nothing "ethnocentric" about condemning what the Koran teaches. Some of the greatest, earliest churches were founded in Turkey.[/q]

are you kidding me?

fine, i condemn the entire bible. it's a load of crap. you're foolish to believe it.

(how does that feel?)

So all religion is evil? Is that what you’re saying? If so, please explain how you have come to this conclusion – since there is a quite a bit of differences between all of them.

no, i said all religion is bad, or more accurately, has the potential for badness. it posits access to the infinite, to the almighty, and because of this, it is greatest motivator for violence and destruction on the face of the earth.

i do think we'd be better off without it these days. you're all so willing to die for it -- and i include the radical islamists in this -- and you're so hungry for an enemy, for people to fight, for people to denigrate, for that self-defining evil, shadowy, Other.

 

[AEON]

yes, your children are just a step away from living in Talibanized Afghanistan.

I am not one to wait until it is too late.

however it's such a straw man to think that the United States is anywhere near having it's way of life converted to Sharia law.

How unfortunate for all those souls who just happen to be born outside our umbrella of protection. So I guess if you are born in the Middle East – too bad for you.

in the US, i have way, way, way more to fear from the American Taliban than i do from the actual Taliban. i'm far more likely to get my head bashed in by some thug than i am to be attacked by a terrorist.

Yeah, there is so many young men coming out of Bible Studies and beating the crap out of gays. The ones who usually do this sort of thing are more likely to be in the neo-Nazi camp. No mainstream Christian church that I am aware of is teaching violence toward gays

[q]There is nothing "ethnocentric" about condemning what the Koran teaches. Some of the greatest, earliest churches were founded in Turkey.[/q]

are you kidding me?

fine, i condemn the entire bible. it's a load of crap. you're foolish to believe it.

(how does that feel?)

Maybe you are misunderstanding what ethnocentrism is: (from wikipedia) – “Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups”

I don’t think Islam is a race problem; it is an ideological/theological one.

no, i said all religion is bad, or more accurately, has the potential for badness. it posits access to the infinite, to the almighty, and because of this, it is greatest motivator for violence and destruction on the face of the earth.

Atheists can also have the same possibilities and motivations (i.e. communism)

i do think we'd be better off without it these days. you're all so willing to die for it -- and i include the radical islamists in this -- and you're so hungry for an enemy, for people to fight, for people to denigrate, for that self-defining evil, shadowy, Other.

Hungry for an enemy? Just because people here are defining their enemy – doesn’t mean they are hungry for one.

 

[Irvine511]

I am not one to wait until it is too late.

then start voting Democratic -- the Republicans are only making things worse. the lethality of the individual Islamist cannot be underestimated, but the scope of the threat and the direct danger it poses to the individual American has been wildly exaggerated.

do you honestly think that we're going to have a Red Dawn with Islamists jumping out of the sky and enslaving you?

the truth of the matter is this: the lives that are really at stake are not our own, but those of the everday citizens of the Middle East. if push came to shove, there is no question that superior Western technology could put an end to things very quickly, and at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. it's them we should be fighting for, not paranoid delusions and self-aggrandizing notions of a particular threat to ourselves.

besides, AEON, they're coming after me first.



[q]How unfortunate for all those souls who just happen to be born outside our umbrella of protection. So I guess if you are born in the Middle East – too bad for you.[/q]

and you think that the GWOT, as you understand it, protecting your children from the Sharia law that's just waiting to pounce the moment you let your guard down, is actrually helping people in the Middle East?



[q]Yeah, there is so many young men coming out of Bible Studies and beating the crap out of gays. The ones who usually do this sort of thing are more likely to be in the neo-Nazi camp. No mainstream Christian church that I am aware of is teaching violence toward gays[/q]

you see -- this is all i'm asking you to do in regards to Islam: extend to it the same respect and benefit of the doubt that you demand for Christianity. i totally agree with you; it is not mainstream Christianity to kill gay people. but the reason why Christianity in this country is relatively healthy, especially in comparison to Islam in the Middle East, has nothing to do with any teachings inherent to either religion, and everything to do with the system of government we have in the US versus those in the Middle East. you can thank the US Constitution for the health of Christianity. you can thank the separation of chruch and state for the health of Christianity. you can thank the anathema that is theocracy for the health of Christianity.



[q]Maybe you are misunderstanding what ethnocentrism is: (from wikipedia) – “Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups”

I don’t think Islam is a race problem; it is an ideological/theological one.[/q]


religion is as much a product of society as anything else; under the umbrella of ethnocentrism i include religion, and more often than not, religion is itself "race-ed" -- it's still brown vs. white, the West vs. the East, and that's how it's being pitched to the masses by certain elements in the Republican Party.




[q]Atheists can also have the same possibilities and motivations (i.e. communism)[/q]

it's nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with understanding the seductive power of religion and doing whatever you can to resist that. atheism is still thinking within the box of religion, whereas agnosticism, or secular humanism, simply understands religon as just another thought system. ultimately, i cannot say that your faith is "wrong" any more than you can say that your faith is "right" so we can agree that we cannot "know," and we'll never kill each other over it.

Hungry for an enemy? Just because people here are defining their enemy – doesn’t mean they are hungry for one.

everything i've seen in these threads as dripped with thirst for a new bad guy, a new USSR, a new boogeyman.

 

[Justin24]

then start voting Democratic -- the Republicans are only making things worse.

Does this mean if you were living in the times of when Lincoln was president you would not vote for him because all republicans are evil as you put it but not in context.

 

[Irvine511]

Does this mean if you were living in the times of when Lincoln was president you would not vote for him because all republicans are evil as you put it but not in context.

no.

 

[Justin24]

But you stated republicans ruin everything which imply's there bad

 

[Irvine511]

But you stated republicans ruin everything which imply's there bad

i stated that the Republican Party is making things worse in the Middle East and not better.

i have no idea how you got back to Lincoln.

 

[Justin24]

I got to lincoln cause you said the republicans make things worse. I wanted to use it as an analogy.

 

[AEON]

i stated that the Republican Party is making things worse in the Middle East and not better.

i have no idea how you got back to Lincoln.

One could definitely argue that the current terrorist organizations gained most of their power and influence during the Clinton Administration.

One could go even further that his policies of retreat and avoidance empowered and emboldened these organizations.

 

[Justin24]

Well Technically it started with Jimmy Carter ( MR. Noble Peace Prize) ha

 

[Irvine511]

One could definitely argue that the current terrorist organizations gained most of their power and influence during the Clinton Administration.

One could go even further that his policies of retreat and avoidance empowered and emboldened these organizations.

and one could look at the near-chaos situations we have in Iraq and Afghanistan and the greater influence Iran now has across the Middle East and the loss of American moral authority and the immense loss of international respect, especially in the eyes of our allies, that is all the result of specific Bush administration policies.