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Old 04-22-2007, 10:06 AM   #256
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Originally posted by indra



I have a friend who shot a man in self defense. My friend was asleep with his wife and infant son in his locked house when he heard someone breaking in. His wife called 911; he got a gun and went into the hallway. He told the intruder he had a gun and to leave. The intruder (with a not legally owned gun) shot him (shattered his leg -- he spent months in the hospital); he fired back once hitting the intruder in the abdomen. The intruder then went back outside where he met the arriving police, fired on them, and was shot and killed.

Now for the chilling part. The intruder left a suicide note. This note detailed his plan to break into houses, rape, torture and kill the inhabitants, and when he was finally surrounded by police to fire on them so he would commit suicide by cop. My friend's house was the first stop of the night, apparently picked at random.

So tell me Amy -- if that was your friend, would you really tell him he should have let that man rape, torture and kill him and his family? I couldn't. I know what happened in this case isn't statistically likely -- but it did happen, and the only reason it had a reasonably happy outcome is that my friend had a legal gun and used it.

I'm not a fan of guns, don't currently own any (I have owned a shotgun and a rifle) and don't plan to get any in the future. I would certainly prefer it if guns were very rare in this country. But they aren't, and I like my friend and his son (I don't know his now ex-wife) and know that without my friend having that gun and being willing to use it they almost certainly would have died horrific deaths and I would have never known them. So I don't know...guns, even legally owned ones, make me nervous, and some...hell many...of the people who legally own guns make me nervous. But knowing that only people willing to obtain them illegally have them makes me even more nervous.

The US is a violent nation, and other than mandating heavy duty pot smoking by all (I'm kidding, btw, but it probably would mellow us out a bit...), I don't see a way of changing that any time soon.
This is a powerful story Indra. Thanks for sharing. Even though these stories are rare - I doubt your friend was thinking about how rare these events are supposed to be when his leg was shattered and his family faced rape, torture, and death.

As a father and husband - even the chance that such a thing might happen is too much to accept. It is difficult to see why people do not understand this.
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Old 04-22-2007, 10:59 AM   #257
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An isolated incident still isn't enough for me to surrender to a life of fear and paranoia and guns. I'll take my chances without weapons, thanks.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:20 AM   #258
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I still though, completely support a buy back scheme to buy back all the guns, melt them down, and leave the guns in the hands of the people who require them - there are always going to be illegal ones out there, but i think Australia shows that you don't need a gun to protect yourself, and once the guns are taken away not every criminal with a gun goes around shooting defenceless citizens.
"Buyback has no effect on murder rate. Half a billion dollars spent buying back hundreds of thousands of guns after the Port Arthur massacre had no effect on the homicide rate, says a study published in an influential British journal."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...455665717.html

Personally, I think Australia's lower crime rates are not due to the lack of guns, but other socio-economic factors. If buying back guns did not affect crime rates in Australia, which already had lower crime rates, how do you think it would help in the USA? I'm not asking to say you're wrong, I'd like to know what specifically you think would happen and how it would work.
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Old 04-22-2007, 11:22 AM   #259
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Originally posted by AEON


As a father and husband - even the chance that such a thing might happen is too much to accept. It is difficult to see why people do not understand this.
Because for every story like this, we all know stories of children who got hold of a gun their parents kept for "safety" and accidentally shot themselves or another child.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:03 PM   #260
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My Minority Report comment was about the direction the thread was taking. Everyone who owns a gun has become a potential killer ect.

Everyone who drives a car after a beer is a potential killer too, yet somehow people get home from cookouts, and barbacues, and Christmas parties after a few glasses of beer and wine.

I do not buy into the paranoia that because people own guns, someone is going to become a killer, and becuase of that, we are going to legislate guns out of existence. I guess I do not believe we should be walking around terrified. Guns exist, and no matter what laws are in existence, people are going to break them.

Drugs, Alcohol, Sex, Speeding, ect ect .... all occur no matter what the law.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:22 PM   #261
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I do not buy into the paranoia that because people own guns, someone is going to become a killer,
Nobody and I mean nobody here ever suggested that there is CAUSATION between buying a gun and becoming a killer. There isn't a single post on this thread, and I know because I've read them all.

So I'm not sure where you are seeing this "paranoia."
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:37 PM   #262
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Originally posted by indra


The US is a violent nation, and other than mandating heavy duty pot smoking by all (I'm kidding, btw, but it probably would mellow us out a bit...), I don't see a way of changing that any time soon.
I think it also has to do with the US in particular (when compared to other common law nations) having a specifically strong reaction to the notion of property ownership. In the US there is this view that your property is yours and it's sacred and it's become acceptable to defend it using essentially any means necessary. It is NOT the case anywhere else. Property rights are undervalued in the other common law nations and you are always restricted from both defending your property (as compared to defending your or somebody else's person), and they are undervalued in terms of compensation (compare compensation for negligent destruction of property v. compensation for personal injuries).

The social attitude and the attitude of the judicial system is completely different in the UK, Australia, Canada, etc.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:45 PM   #263
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Originally posted by anitram


Nobody and I mean nobody here ever suggested that there is CAUSATION between buying a gun and becoming a killer. There isn't a single post on this thread, and I know because I've read them all.

So I'm not sure where you are seeing this "paranoia."
There is causation between owning a car and accidents.

I have read every post in this thread too. Am I not allowed to voice my opinions about the tenor of the conversation? Or is free speech on the adgenda too?
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:49 PM   #264
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Originally posted by Liesje


Because for every story like this, we all know stories of children who got hold of a gun their parents kept for "safety" and accidentally shot themselves or another child.
It is difficult to see why people do not understand this.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:55 PM   #265
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Or is free speech on the adgenda too?
According to the starting post, yes it is.
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Old 04-22-2007, 12:56 PM   #266
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


There is causation between owning a car and accidents.
No, there isn't.

There's a correlation.

They are two different things.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:35 PM   #267
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It is difficult to see why people do not understand this.
Because everybody thinks there smart enough not to let their kids find their guns.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:59 PM   #268
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Because everybody thinks there smart enough not to let their kids find their guns.
But it's kind of a contradicting point that gun owners have. They all try and convince you they need this gun for protection, therefore it has to be in a place that's easy and fast to get to when they are awakened in the night by the bad guy. Yet they all try and convince you they are responsible enough to lock them up and keep them out of reach of their children...
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Old 04-22-2007, 02:10 PM   #269
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But it's kind of a contradicting point that gun owners have. They all try and convince you they need this gun for protection, therefore it has to be in a place that's easy and fast to get to when they are awakened in the night by the bad guy. Yet they all try and convince you they are responsible enough to lock them up and keep them out of reach of their children...
Exactly. Guns should be kept separate from the ammo and out or reach of the kids. Which means they're not readily available to fend off the violent, drug-crazed nutjob that could break into your house at any moment to destroy your family.
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Old 04-22-2007, 03:58 PM   #270
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But it's kind of a contradicting point that gun owners have. They all try and convince you they need this gun for protection, therefore it has to be in a place that's easy and fast to get to when they are awakened in the night by the bad guy. Yet they all try and convince you they are responsible enough to lock them up and keep them out of reach of their children...
Well that's the thing. My kids are 5 & 9 and I'd be scared shitless to have a gun in my house. And you can tell kids they're dangerous all you want...when I was a kid I knew M-80s were dangerous, and I kinda figured the "aerosol blowtorch" thing was too, but I still did it.

Is the issue here pro-gun/anti-gun, or is it more complex than that? I mean, are we talking about banning all guns, or should long guns (hunting rifles, shotguns) be OK? Personally I'm not ready to ban hunting weapons. Also, should there be a quota? Should private citizens be limited in the number of firearms they can legally own? If I had to make the call I'd probably outlaw guns who's purpose is to shoot people, but leave the hunting rifles & shotguns alone.
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