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Old 06-27-2002, 10:43 PM   #136
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Bush-Cheney 2004

Quote:
Originally posted by Hi Bias



Answer:

The sharing of their political views.
Very funny
but you did leave a few conservatives out of this as I think there are actually 8 of us here now not counting my alters

But you still sound like a GORE-loser to me

XOXOXOXO
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Old 06-27-2002, 10:51 PM   #137
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Very witty, Hi Bias.

If you have anything of substance to add to the debate, don't hesitate to mention it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern
If you put up a dartboard, eventually anyone with a bunch of darts is going to score a bullseye. The solution isn't to take out the people doing the throwing, but to not be a dartboard. Otherwise, you fight a futile war that never ends. Unfortunately, that's what we find ourselves stuck in right now.
The question is, is there times it's okay to be a dartboard? Take the case of cops and criminals. Often times, crime lords develop a deeply rooted hatred for the police officers who are trying to do their job and enforce the law - and these policemen become targets.

Is it a bad thing that the cops become targeted? Yes. Is having the cops back down from their duties the solution? Probably not.

What I'm saying is this: we may be envied and hated because of our freedom, our prosperity, and our role as the leader of the free world - and the cutting edge of the global politics and culture. If that IS the case (and I think it is), shying away from our position may not be the way to go.
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Old 06-27-2002, 11:28 PM   #138
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Once again Bubba comes thru w/a GREAT ANALOGY.

Mr. Someone..you know I love you like a brother. however
I see 3 main problems The liberal/dems/left-leaning crowd are having here. And THIS IS SAD.

#1- They hate the FACT that Bono genuinely likes SOME Republicans NOW..This is their WORST nightmare

#2-Bush DOES have enough CREDIBILITY and CHARACTER to lead US in a time of war while the recent Dem Pres paled in comparison in that area..ie-Carter/Clinton..LET IT BE NOTED tho-
I LIKED lots of Clinton's domestic handling of issues.

#3- The Dems here ARE afraid of buying me my Diet Cokes in 2004.

Thank You.


Thats all.
Love-
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Old 06-28-2002, 12:16 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
Let's say - for a moment - that Bush is acting in his own self-interest, rather than the interest of the nation.

(What evidence do you have of that? High poll numbers? Is it not possible that the man is following his principles and the poll numbers are simply following that? Or is EVERY action that the nation approves of somehow suspect?)

Even if he is, that's a little bit different than what Hitler did: creating crises himself (including the burning of the Riechstag) to assume dictatorial powers.

So, unless you want to assert that A) Bush planned or knowingly allowed 19 terrorists to kill over 3,000 Americans or B) Bush is actually assuming dictatorial powers, STAND DOWN.
Stand down on what? Stand down on analogy's which I believe are valid? Stand down when I criticize Bush' foreign policy? Do you think I only have the right to criticize the US government if I agree to your little A and B? Do you actually think I spelled 'criticize' correctly?

The only thing I ever said about a Bush/Hitler parallel was that they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process. No matter how many differences between Bush and Hitler you point out, it doesn't make my initial statement less true (les true??)

And I'm not sure what evidence for Bush' milking policy you'd accept. A memo from the FBI (or CIA or whatever) in which they openly declare using the terrorist attacks to their advantage? A note from Bush himself saying that very same thing with his signature underneath it (or in his case, a big X)?

Look, I'm not saying Bush organized these attacks or that he wasn't genuinly devastated like the rest of us. But from a purely political point of view, 11-9 was the best that could ever happen to him.

BTW Diamond, don't you know Diet anything sucks?
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Old 06-28-2002, 12:44 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally posted by doctorwho


I fear Diamond would be right in that if elections were held today, he'd win. Of course, since he didn't really win last time, I guess it would be nice for him to officially win this time.
Yes he would win Dr.BooHoo
and btw
It's not very sexy to be a Gore Loser
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Old 06-28-2002, 12:49 PM   #141
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what the hell is in the water over there?

Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth


But from a purely political point of view, 11-9 was the best that could ever happen to him.


with statements like that (which suck) I believe you should STAND DOWN on the issue.

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Old 06-28-2002, 01:11 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
Stand down on what? Stand down on analogy's which I believe are valid? Stand down when I criticize Bush' foreign policy? Do you think I only have the right to criticize the US government if I agree to your little A and B? Do you actually think I spelled 'criticize' correctly?

The only thing I ever said about a Bush/Hitler parallel was that they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process. No matter how many differences between Bush and Hitler you point out, it doesn't make my initial statement less true (les true??)
I don't know what you're getting at about spelling "criticize" or "less," and I honestly don't care.

You DID say more than "they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process."

Need I remind you?

"Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did."

Now, if I remember my history studies, Hitler ORCHESTRATED events to assume power and led Germany into STARTING a war by invading Poland.

Saying that Bush is essentially "pulling a Hitler" is to suggest that Bush either knew about 9/11 OR is using it to attack people who had nothing to do with it.

THAT comment in particular should be recanted or defended. Back down from that comment, or start backing it up.
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Old 06-28-2002, 04:15 PM   #143
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At the end of the day..
My hope and prayer is THAT,

People like-
Dr Teeth
Mr Someone
Dr.Who
Elvis
Salome , Melon -
and others will appreciate the situation are President is in.. and admit that-

He didnt manufacture it.
He didn't 'hope' for it.
He isnt trying to "MILK IT" at the expense of innocent lives..or Polictical gain
and that-
THE POLLS indicate he is doing a DECENT job re under these conditions...
Thats all.

Thanks-
and
Peace-
Diamond
Remember this ISNT Disneyland anymore and a safer world has its expenses.
DB9
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Old 06-28-2002, 06:42 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
At the end of the day..
My hope and prayer is THAT,

People like-
Dr Teeth
Mr Someone
Dr.Who
Elvis
Salome , Melon -
and others will appreciate the situation are President is in.. and admit that-
I hope that at the end of the day I will be left allone
without people who pretend to know what it is I am thinking/appreciating
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Old 06-28-2002, 10:37 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba
What I'm saying is this: we may be envied and hated because of our freedom, our prosperity, and our role as the leader of the free world - and the cutting edge of the global politics and culture. If that IS the case (and I think it is), shying away from our position may not be the way to go.
I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.

We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
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Old 06-29-2002, 01:51 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern
I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.
While I agree that the clash may be more than idealogical, I still don't believe that it means we're necessarily wrong; nor do I buy the poverty argument - given that so many of the terrorists (bin Ladin, his Saudi supporters) are/were filthy rich.

Quote:
We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.
Again, this may be true, but it may be the RIGHT thing to defend Israel, the only democracy in the Mideast (and I believe it is the right thing to do).

Quote:
If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
In the first case, we must recall the the Crusades were partially caused when Muslims invaded Europe.

Beyond that, I'm not sure that changing the way each culture looks at each other will work. We certainly didn't take that road against Nazi Germany or the Japanese Empire, and it make not work here.

Though the WWII comparison may prove instructive: rather than our perspective of their culture, it was the enemy's culture itself that changed. That may be necessary here - particularly their inherent hatred of Jews and other non-Muslims. Changing the way they look at us (in this case, as humans that deserve to live on this planet as much as them) may result in a change of culture.

Hope I wasn't too incoherent...
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Old 06-29-2002, 02:09 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern



We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

Israel has often been referred to as "GOD's chosen people", not Allah's.

Big difference in the way some people selflessly die for GOD and others kill "in the name of Allah"
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Old 06-29-2002, 04:25 AM   #148
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My brother who I love..little Foxxren..

Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


I would have to disagree with the idea that we are hated simply because of our values of personal freedom. I think it simply isn't that ideological. It comes down to the fact that they see us as forcing our Western values onto their Muslim/Eastern values. They see that we are exploiting their trust to make us richer, while giving them little to no pieces of the pie. We go there and build factories to make our products as cheaply as possible, while paying them very little for their labor. They get sucked in by promises of prosperity and growth that never come to be. As long as our riches are based on their work, that's just the way its going to be. If we don't go there with an attitude to help them truly improve their lives, they will never see us as their friends, only as their cunning enemies.

We're also not winning many friends by so fervently supporting Israel. I'm not saying that I think Israel should be reclaimed, but Palestinians and other Muslims probably are not too happy about their land being taken from under their feet like that. They see it as an invasion of their territory, backed by us. Israel uses American weapons, and political support here is for them. Logically, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.

If we turn this into a simply ideological war, we risk turning this battle into the new Crusades. We have to recognize that there are concrete reasons why they hate us, and take steps to change they way we look at their cultures, as well as change they way they look at us. Only then can we even hope to end terrorism.
Listen my little brother-
This is the mindset of today. It is inaccurate..Envy is what the others are about..
Plez dont buy into it.
Listen to Bubba and Spyplane.


Your
Friend-
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Old 07-01-2002, 03:04 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba


I don't know what you're getting at about spelling "criticize" or "less," and I honestly don't care.

You DID say more than "they both unified their countries by focussing on a common enemy, gaining a lot of popularity in the process."

Need I remind you?

"Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did."

Now, if I remember my history studies, Hitler ORCHESTRATED events to assume power and led Germany into STARTING a war by invading Poland.

Saying that Bush is essentially "pulling a Hitler" is to suggest that Bush either knew about 9/11 OR is using it to attack people who had nothing to do with it.

THAT comment in particular should be recanted or defended. Back down from that comment, or start backing it up.
I think I finally see where you're coming from Bubba. You thought I meant that Bush is doing a 100% copy of what Hitler did? That wasn't what I meant at all. I was only using it as an introduction to my next sentence: "Hitler gained popularity by focussing on a common enemy (especially on the jews) and giving the Germans a sense of unity".

Didn't everything I wrote after the sentence "Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did." didn't provide you with enough clues to understand my point of view?
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Old 07-01-2002, 09:10 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
I think I finally see where you're coming from Bubba. You thought I meant that Bush is doing a 100% copy of what Hitler did? That wasn't what I meant at all. I was only using it as an introduction to my next sentence: "Hitler gained popularity by focussing on a common enemy (especially on the jews) and giving the Germans a sense of unity".

Didn't everything I wrote after the sentence "Bush is playing the propaganda thing just like Hitler did." didn't provide you with enough clues to understand my point of view?
Well, I now see what you're saying, and I agree that what you say is technically true, but it's still a very emotionally loaded observation.

It's close, I think, to saying something like "Bush is acting just like Hitler" in that Hitler got up every morning and had breakfast, and Bush gets up every morning and has breakfast. So do MOST people, so raising the spectre of Hitler seems inappropriate.

Yes, Bush may be gaining popularity by focusing on a common enemy and giving the nation a sense of unity. Yes, Hitler did the same thing. But so has almost EVERY other successful political leader in a time of a military crisis.

What Hitler did that was quite uncommon is that he focused on a common enemy and created a sense of unity IN ORDER to gain popularity; increased popularity was the intended goal, not just a secondary consequence. Further, Hitler likely arranged many of the crises (the burning of the Reichstag, specifically) to have the opportunity to create a common enemy to focus on.

To say that Bush is like Hitler in these respects is to suggest that either the response to 9/11 was cynically driven by poll numbers, or that 9/11 was planned or at least allowed by the White House. Both of those claims are serious enough to require a heavy burden of proof which has, thus far, NOT been met.

And to say that Bush is like Hitler in the way he's like almost every other successful political leader begs the question, why single out the comparison to Hitler?
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