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Old 08-13-2003, 09:04 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Hmmm. Dead languages, no subtitles, but the message of "hatred, bigotry and anti-Semitism " comes across clearly?
Take a good look at pre-Vatican II Catholicism sometime. It is precisely that.

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Old 08-13-2003, 09:05 PM   #17
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Originally posted by sharky
I dunno. Gibson has said that he has based the movie on what is in the Gospel. I just don't think this movie is going to spread anti-Semitism. The Gospels have been around for 2000 years. If you aren't an ignorant bigot now, I doubt this movie is going to make you one.
The problem is less to do with the Gospel as much as interpretations of it. How traditionalist Catholicism interprets the Bible...well, I personally find it to be a bit scary.

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Old 08-13-2003, 09:07 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I miss the communion rails....and the masses in latin!!!!
There is a huge difference in being nostalgic about this and taking it to a cult level. Latin was originally introduced into Catholicism to be the "language of the people" of the Roman Empire. Previously, all masses were done in Greek, which confused all the non-Greek speakers amongst the Romans. But, needless to say, either they missed the point or was written out, because, obviously, Latin existed for nearly 1500 years after Latin was pronounced dead.

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Old 08-13-2003, 10:26 PM   #19
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I'm looking forward to being able to judge it for myself. I recently saw an news snippet about this. It's already very controversial. Should be interesting. I'm just not sure how much should be read into what someone's perceived beliefs are. Not knowing Mel G. I couldn't really begin to know his deepest thought's. I guess we will find out to some extent. But the fact still remains, he's not exactly some profound religious leader. Just a movie star/producer. and controversity will sell tickets, even if you can't understand it. I'm looking forward to it. I think.
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Old 08-13-2003, 11:55 PM   #20
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Belief.net has several articles based on this. That website has been keeping an eye on the movie. I posted the link on the Goal is Soul, but I'll post it again.

http://www.belief.net/frameset.asp?p...&boardID=62129

It has articles from all different points of view

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Old 08-14-2003, 01:17 AM   #21
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Just a brief note to say that although I look forward to this movie with some anticipation and interest, I do 'not' think Mr. Gibson's talent for historical fact is that impressive. Yes, his films are entertaining, in particular 'Braveheart', but the historical content of that movie was laughable.

I hope he does better this time, historically.

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Well, some people already complained that the crucifixion wasn't portrayed accurately in the film.

Don't all "historical" movies play around with the facts, though? "Elizabeth" with Cate Blanchett took plenty of liberties, but I don't remember that film getting the sort of criticism "Braveheart" copped.
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Old 08-14-2003, 02:19 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Anthony
Just a brief note to say that although I look forward to this movie with some anticipation and interest, I do 'not' think Mr. Gibson's talent for historical fact is that impressive. Yes, his films are entertaining, in particular 'Braveheart', but the historical content of that movie was laughable.

I hope he does better this time, historically.

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But did anyone try researching Wallace when Braveheart first came out? I did and there was literally nothing out there. It was amazing what amounts of information cropped up after the film's release and popularity.

I know Gibson talked about getting piles of history books--if they were anyhing like the ones I looked at, there was very little out there. Most of it was from English sources that still accused Wallace of hideous atrocities. It took me years to track down the Blind Harry poem, which is I think what Gibson ultimately based the film on. At least he made an effort, most directors don't. No, it's not accurate (no bridge at Sterling Bridge) and there were *many* liberties taken, but it's not the atrocity people make it out to be.

(If you think the film is bad, take a look at the original script and give Gibson credit for doing the research that he did. Randall Wallace obviously never even opened a book on the Middle Ages. He did the same thing with "Pearl Harbor" so the guy just does not believe in research.)

Saracene mentioned "Elizabeth"--the director prided himself on not opening a history book and instructed his cast to do the same. Or "The Patriot" where you had a WW2 expert write the script and include a church burning from Nazi Germany because he thought no one would notice. These are both areas with ample documentation, where the truth is just as exciting as anything some script writer can churn out. That is far more irritating to me as a history student than a film like "Braveheart", where the director at least tried and the evidence is scarce.

I will always defend that film, it made me interested in history.
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Old 08-14-2003, 02:32 AM   #23
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Originally posted by filledeperle
Belief.net has several articles based on this. That website has been keeping an eye on the movie. I posted the link on the Goal is Soul, but I'll post it again.

http://www.belief.net/frameset.asp?p...&boardID=62129

It has articles from all different points of view

Perle
Thanks for sharing--I like the debate they've got going. I'm glad it features some Jewish commentary, which is what I have been looking for.
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Old 08-14-2003, 02:35 AM   #24
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to whet the appetite for all of you who can't wait
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:51 AM   #25
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to whet the appetite for all of you who can't wait
Few understand the horror the Romans created with crucifixion. And today, many want religion that doesn't make them feel uncomfortable.
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Old 08-14-2003, 12:15 PM   #26
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But did anyone try researching Wallace when Braveheart first came out? I did and there was literally nothing out there. It was amazing what amounts of information cropped up after the film's release and popularity.
<snip>


Saracene mentioned "Elizabeth"--the director prided himself on not opening a history book and instructed his cast to do the same. Or "The Patriot" where you had a WW2 expert write the script and include a church burning from Nazi Germany because he thought no one would notice. These are both areas with ample documentation, where the truth is just as exciting as anything some script writer can churn out. That is far more irritating to me as a history student than a film like "Braveheart", where the director at least tried and the evidence is scarce.

I will always defend that film, it made me interested in history.

You're right. Virtually nothing is known of William Wallace's life; his date of birth isn't known, nor even the place. It's believed to be in the Glasgow area but I can't tell you why. Political and military history is not my forte anyway. You could use the same criticism of some of Shakespeare's plays; heck, he even gave Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) a coastline and it's landlocked. Medieval writers played loose with facts themselves. It's frustrating as hell to get information about these people. It's almost nonexistent. Historians get bored like everyone else.
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:02 PM   #27
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The trailer does show some very omnious looking rabbis, but mostly sadistic Romans, so if these people have only viewed the trailer...they ought to be sending their threats to Rome.
This could be the case of people blaming what they know, i.e. the Jews. It's like how people automatically associated Afghanis with Iraqis, when they had nothing to do with each other. So maybe people see these sadistic Romans on screen and automatically associate them with the rabbis/Jews of today. Either way, the reaction on the part of some people is quite sickening.

I just hope Gibson doesn't take too much liberty with this film, since if people see it they might come to associate things in that movie with real life. Sort of how people think that anyone Catholic supports the molestation that goes on in the church, since that's all they hear about the Church.

I'm curious to see this film- although I don't understand: they speak in Latin and have English subtitles?
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:54 PM   #28
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So maybe people see these sadistic Romans on screen and automatically associate them with the rabbis/Jews of today. Either way, the reaction on the part of some people is quite sickening.
I do find this somewhat hard to understand. Pharasees trying to maintain their power while subject to Roman rule arrange for the death of one Jew. If anything, this highlights the danger of a religious establishment detached from God.

The film won't create anti-semetic people. Anti-semetic people are already here.
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Old 08-14-2003, 06:57 PM   #29
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AvsGirl41;

Its funny that you mention 'The Patriot', since I have issues with that film as well. Yes, I do blame the screenwriter more than the director, I just found it funny that Mel Gibson starred in two very large films that outright demonised the British. Randal Wallace is truly horrendous; from Braveheart to the bastardization of the 'Man in the Iron Mask', to the laughable 'We Were Soldiers' and not to mention the calamity that 'Pearl Harbour' was. I am acquainted with his work all too well, unfortunately.

I myself enjoyed 'Braveheart' thoroughly, I just thought it had not only mild historical inaccuracies, but some pretty wild ones. Wallace dying on the same day as King Edward? Wallace impregnating the Queen of England? The constant demonising of King Edward (including my favourite, him throwing his son's gay lover out the window) where the only real historical evidence about the man shows him as a reasonable, logical and even 'just' man. I just thought the constant and hugely irreverent demonising of the British was not only uneccessary, but detrimental to the historical integrity of the film. I enjoyed the film, I would have 'loved' the film had it been braver when it came to showing what we have record of. Yes, the poem is the only 'real' evidence of Wallace ever existing, and it was ultimately based on that, but if a film is meant to be 'historical', I think it should atleast try not to take too many liberties.

My fear is that Mel Gibson seems to enjoy demonising certain parties, and, while I'll admit that 'Braveheart' and 'The Patriot' are movies more prone to Hollywood sensationalism, I fear that his directing will demonise certain parties in 'The Passion'. It would be a shame if this were to happen.

I didn't think 'Elizabeth' was all that bad, to be honest. Being a fan of Roman history though, I thought 'Gladiator' was a gem. Yes, there were plenty of inaccuracies, but none of them were that far from the recorded truth.

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Old 08-14-2003, 08:50 PM   #30
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I shy away from alot of movies because alot of violence and bloodshed freaks me out. Yeah, that just about means screw the movies......... Funny, I went to "Gladiator" with two Italians, from the old country, and they were telling me it was a historical monstrosity. From studying Roman history I know that it's true, practically everything in the movie was historically screwy. I found classical history much easier than medieval then ended up majoring in the medieval stuff. Go figure.
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