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Old 06-16-2004, 12:41 PM   #61
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I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. YOu, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:19 PM   #62
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BluberryPoptart:
I agree with you 100% that actions like blowing up people and dancing and cheering about that is unjustifiable.
On the other hand i think it's understandable that some people act like that. Maybe you'd understand that too if you try to imagine how you'd feel if the same things would have hapened in the US to your friends.

And I'm verry interested if you think that the "Colaterale Damage" because of the use of cluster bombs or sexual abuse and the Torture in prisons are justifiable and understandable?

And again i have the same to say.
I can understand that some people prefere revenge over justice but acting like that is not justifiable.

We planted several demon seeds what we see now is the first spark which might lead to a fire
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Old 06-16-2004, 02:36 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. YOu, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.



By the way those killed were hired by the military and are and extension of them. They are armed and are called private contractors or mercenaries is a better word.

OF COUSE this doesn't excuse or condone the acts of the Iraqi's.
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Old 06-16-2004, 05:11 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by CampbellMSU
i try and stay out of this forum, and i don't have the biggest support for this war in iraq, but if we see them celebrating after killing our guys, why don't we fucking bomb the fuck out of them? we just kinda sit there, why not drop a few bombs on these guys, they're obviously not the ones that want to help us build a new iraq (and we need all the help we can get). sorry, but this story (i was gonna post it) really pisses me off.
Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic.
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Old 06-16-2004, 06:41 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
And again i have the same to say.
I can understand that some people prefere revenge over justice but acting like that is not justifiable.

We planted several demon seeds what we see now is the first spark which might lead to a fire
Excuse me? Demon seed? This didn't begin with our invasion of Iraq. This treatment of Americans, westerners, and Jews has been going on all over the world for a long time. If anyone has any 'revenge' to dish out, we owe THEM quite a bit, not that I think we should give it. I cannot abide or have any respect for their twisted logic.
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Old 06-16-2004, 06:43 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
I must still be asleep.

Once again, I encourage you to actually read what I've written. I have given you perhaps more respect than you deserve by reading what you've written and then responding to it. Yes, even your argument about hate crimes. You, on the other hand, have not shown me the same courtesy.
I really don't know what you expect me to do but agree with you? I'm tired of arguing about it. I've already stated my case.


Quote:
originally posted by Zoorock girl!
Well, I guess I can't argue with that logic.
Neither can I!
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Old 06-16-2004, 06:53 PM   #67
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I'm not asking you to agree with me. We appeared to be having a debate. I say "appeared" because while I was reading what you'd written and responding to it, you were either skimming or plainly ignoring what I'd written and then responding. You asked questions, I answered them, and you kept asking them, saying you wished someone would answer you. You misrepresented my arguments, put words in my mouth, and generally acted like you weren't reading what I had said, but then acted like no one was listening to you. Speaking for myself, I was reading what you were saying, and responding. That's how debate works. But apparently I wasn't saying things that you wanted to hear because only rarely did you address statements that I actually wrote, instead choosing to tell me to take my bleedding-heart garbage to Iraq where they were sure to shoot me on site. That's not how debate works. I encourage you to start reading our conversation from the beginning, and you'll see that I'm plainly talking to you while you're plainly talking to yourself.

Whatever, though. You haven't read anything I've said thusfar. Why should it be different now?
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Old 06-16-2004, 07:07 PM   #68
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I have read it, but you keep pushing the same position in different ways and I still haven't changed my mind. I'm sorry if I haven't debated you the right way, I wasn't on the debate team at school, I didn't know there were rules for responding here
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Old 06-16-2004, 07:13 PM   #69
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There's no rules, don't be silly. I'd just ask that you at least reference what I've written so that I know that you've read it. Honestly, in many posts it seemed like you weren't reading them at all. If you raised an issue, I'd answer it with my opinion. Then you'd go into your next post with the same issue without ever trying to refute me, or with any other reference to the post I'd made in response. I know that I was essentially saying the same thing, but that's only because it didn't seem like you were listening. Not that I want you to agree with me, but at least tell me why I'm wrong in what I'm saying. That's debate, no rule book necessary.
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Old 06-17-2004, 03:46 AM   #70
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BluberryPoptart:
I didn't say it began with Mr. G.W. Bush or with the last Iraq war i just said that we (the western world) started the agressions.
You can look at the history of UKs colonial experiments down there, at the support of the Shah and later at the decision of Mr. Reagan who supported Mr. Hussein as a counterpart to Ayatollah Komeni, later we betrayed the people in the Iraq war who assisted the US and of course this time we did again several things which are help to let us look like pure evil.
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Old 06-17-2004, 04:51 AM   #71
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Results of a poll, requested by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month published in the NYTimes

The coalition's confidence rating in May stood at 11 percent, down from 47 percent in November, while coalition forces had just 10 percent support. 92% of the Iraqis said they considered coalition troops occupiers, while just 2% called them liberators.

Frustration over security was made worse this spring by revelations of sexual and physical abuse of Iraqis by U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The poll, taken in mid-May shortly after the controversy began, found 71 percent of Iraqis said they were surprised by the humiliating photos and tales of abuse at the hands of Americans, but 54 percent said they believed all Americans behave like the guards.

Of course the US government decided not to publish the new data because tey don't fit into their politics
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Old 06-17-2004, 09:53 AM   #72
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To me the really frustrating thing is that the people could send a stronger message with peaceful demonstrations against the Coalition. A portion of the population is locked into a "revenge" mentality. I wonder if some of this is going on also and isn't being reported by the news media? It doesn't create fireworks the way the killings do.
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Old 06-17-2004, 11:41 AM   #73
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Normal

Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
To me the really frustrating thing is that the people could send a stronger message with peaceful demonstrations against the Coalition. A portion of the population is locked into a "revenge" mentality.
That's it, Verte. To me, because of these actions they aren't coming off as very sympathetic victims, except to some other Arabs, and the Bush bashers and US bashers. Acting worse than the people you claim are picking on you is not the way to make the world feel sorry for you. In the NFL, when a guy takes a cheap shot on another player, and the offended player gets mad and does something worse back, they both get penalized, and most of the time only the one who retaliated even gets caught! A lot of times I'll see a guy get hit, then throw up his hands as if to say "you see what he did? But see my hands, I didn't touch him" In that case, the aggressor gets the penalty. The revenge mentality, the extremism, the violent random attacks only make it look like America was right, these guys are crazy terrorists who need to be stopped.

Quote:
I wonder if some of this is going on also and isn't being reported by the news media? It doesn't create fireworks the way the killings do.
Well, I hope so
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Old 06-17-2004, 12:00 PM   #74
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I remember when we were young and tried to contact the media the first time when we protested against the government.
Well they informed us that they won't send reporters as long as we are not willing to throw stones

The media prefers to sell sensations or dreams, it's not their most important job to inform us unbiased.
Why? I guess the majority prefers to see that

btw according to several news-stations (incl. the NY Times )
Rummy ordered at least one time that a prisinor should be a "Ghost detainee" Maj Gen Antonio Taguba,
US army investigator calls them "deceptive, contrary to army doctrine, and in violation of international law"

Why? No prisionor number -> no IRC who asks about them.
Legal? No a violation of international laws (genova conventions) but if you look at the administration they decided that the President and his folowers are above the US-Law and above international laws. Maybe they ask theirself who needs laws anyway when he's fighting on god's side
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Old 06-17-2004, 12:22 PM   #75
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Valid points, Klaus. I think Rumsfeld in particular has screwed up *big time* and that no one is above the law. That's not really what I'm trying to say--maybe this medicine is screwing up my head. I'm saying this stuff should be protested, but not like this. They should put away the bombs and the guns, and make signs and pick them up and walk through the streets. This is how Gandhi and Co. kicked the Brits out of India. I know some Iraqis are looking at 1920 and trying to duplicate that, but even Sistani thinks that's a mistake because the Shias just threw away alot of potential political power at that point. This whole situation is so damn scary.
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