It happened AGAIN - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-15-2004, 06:57 PM   #46
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM

What revenge? Nobody killed them!!! They're still out there dancing as far as I know. Soldiers may have felt like shooting them, but nobody did!

What bothers me most is that there seems to be more sympathy for the guys who did this than for the people in the SUV, and that is twisted and wrong.

So, you all think that if we look at the reasons they hate us and change them this will stop? I doubt it.They think a different way. They are not like us and don't want to be, so you can't relate to them the way you would someone from western culture. They will always hate us, and Israel. It's part of their culture, has been for ages and it's not going away. Even if it ever did it would take at least a hundred years and several generations which is doing the people over there now no good.

The living proof of this is, the people they killed and burned were coming to HELP them, they were coming to fix the power station, for free. Isn't that nice? They didn't care. They were of the wrong nationality, and they killed them.

I also don't see the difference between this and any other unspeakable hate crime. If someone is killed because they are gay, or black, would it matter what the 'other side' was, or their reasons the killer(s) had for feeling the way they did when they killed them? Of course it wouldn't. It would be a vile, inexcusible act, just like what happened to those people in the SUV. They werre killed for one reason, they were from the wrong country.
__________________

__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-15-2004, 07:11 PM   #47
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
Despite what you may believe it is impossible to kill every terrorist.


Edited for clarity.
No, I don't believe we can kill every terrorist. Terrorism is an idea, not an army, and it cannot be wiped out completely. I have never believed that, and I think a 'war on terrorism' is impossible and endless. However, I do think that when someone is caught in the act of doing what happend to those in the SUV, they should be dealt with the way any murder in the US would be.
__________________

__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-15-2004, 07:16 PM   #48
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


No, I don't believe we can kill every terrorist. Terrorism is an idea, not an army, and it cannot be wiped out completely. I have never believed that, and I think a 'war on terrorism' is impossible and endless. However, I do think that when someone is caught in the act of doing what happend to those in the SUV, they should be dealt with the way any murder in the US would be.
But you won't extend those same legal privileges to the Guantanamo detainees? If I were premium I'd look for that thread, but I believe you and I have already gone around and around on that one.

And absolute statements like "they will always hate us" just sound terribly defeatist to me. Honestly, why don't we just bomb them to oblivion if that's the attitude we're going to take. What's the good in doing anything to help them?
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 06-15-2004, 07:18 PM   #49
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM
Well, helping them fix their power plant didn't make them love us

And I am not talking about the Guantanamo detainees, that is a different situation and I don't feel like digging into another subject. I already have ulcers coming on from this one
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-15-2004, 07:21 PM   #50
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 03:42 AM
I didn't mean to give you ulcers. I was just pointing out the obvious contradiction in your statement.
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 06-15-2004, 08:35 PM   #51
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM
There are no contradictions. It's a completely different story, circumstances and discussion and gets off the subject here. There are plenty of threads on that if you want to talk about it.
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 04:13 AM   #52
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 12:42 PM
ThatGuy:
I love America but that dosn't mean that i love and support everything which is done by America.
Why? Because i love America
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 05:17 AM   #53
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
So, you all think that if we look at the reasons they hate us and change them this will stop? I doubt it.They think a different way. They are not like us and don't want to be, so you can't relate to them the way you would someone from western culture. They will always hate us, and Israel. It's part of their culture, has been for ages and it's not going away. Even if it ever did it would take at least a hundred years and several generations which is doing the people over there now no good.

The living proof of this is, the people they killed and burned were coming to HELP them, they were coming to fix the power station, for free. Isn't that nice? They didn't care. They were of the wrong nationality, and they killed them.
The following post can belong in a lot of threads here, but I post it in this one as it also addresses some issues mentioned here. This is from the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/167/...s_wides:.shtml

Quote:
U.S. poll of Iraqis finds widespread anger at prison abuse, worry about safety

By John Solomon, Associated Press, 6/15/2004 18:54

WASHINGTON (AP) A poll of Iraqis commissioned by the U.S.-governing authority has provided the Bush administration a stark picture of anti-American sentiment more than half of Iraqis believe they would be safer if U.S. troops simply left.

The poll, commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public, also found radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is surging in popularity, 92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos.

[. . .]

Frustration over security was made worse this spring by revelations of sexual and physical abuse of Iraqis by U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The poll, taken in mid-May shortly after the controversy began, found 71 percent of Iraqis said they were surprised by the humiliating photos and tales of abuse at the hands of Americans, but 54 percent said they believed all Americans behave like the guards.
You can also see the poll results here: http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/cpapoll.htm

So while we are shocked and righteously angered by these attacks on those who wanted to repair a power plant, the Iraqi's see them as occupiers. So what they did was an act of resistance (in their eyes). So yes, they think in a different way at this very moment. They see their land occupied by a foreign power, a foreign power they should throw out of their country. You do that by resisting the occupier, by sabotaging their infrastructure, guessing that it'll damage them more than it damages you.
Unless/until we can change that idea (or leave the area), there will be more of these attacks. Sadly.

C ya!

Marty
__________________
Popmartijn is online now  
Old 06-16-2004, 07:58 AM   #54
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn


The following post can belong in a lot of threads here, but I post it in this one as it also addresses some issues mentioned here. This is from the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/167/...s_wides:.shtml



You can also see the poll results here: http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/cpapoll.htm

Oh so you are saying that because of the pillowcases on the heads of some Iraqi prisoners, they feel like they have the right to torture, kill and celebrate over the bodies of people who had nothing to do with it? Even though I do not accept that as a legitmate reason, I knew that anyway, but still don't see how it comes close to making excuses for them, don't forget that the first SUV attack happened before the prisoner thing. If they wanted to get even for that they could have put sacks on their heads and photographed them with dog leashes, even smeared doo on them, they didn't have to kill them and burn them.

Quote:
So while we are shocked and righteously angered by these attacks on those who wanted to repair a power plant, the Iraqi's see them as occupiers. So what they did was an act of resistance (in their eyes). So yes, they think in a different way at this very moment. They see their land occupied by a foreign power, a foreign power they should throw out of their country. You do that by resisting the occupier, by sabotaging their infrastructure, guessing that it'll damage them more than it damages you.
So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this. I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.

I also want an answer to my question about hate crime. This was a hate crime, the people were killed because of their nationality. I ask again, if a person is killed because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation, like the gay guy who was tortured, killed and nailed to a fence out in Wyoming a few years back, would you be coming up with 'reasons' why they did it? Would you care to 'see the other side' about what in their pasts made them do it? Would you be digging up and posting links about how they felt leading to why they did it? No, you'd just say, they were sick, evil, ignorant bastards, and there is no excuse. I agree, and that's also how I feel about the Iraqis who did this.

I don't know how to explain any more than I have that their hate for us, and their reasons for hating us, don't justifiy this, explain it, or make it more understandable in any way. I'll try one other analogy you'll only make fun of, but here goes. I saw one of those Real Stories of the Highway patrol shows where they film calls they go on. There was a woman who had been beaten by her husband, who had fled to a friend's nearby trailer. The cops found the husband and asked him if he beat his wife. He said, yes, he did, because she didn't do the dishes or vaccum the floor, she yelled at him in humiliated him in front of his friends, and he went on to list reasons he beat her as if the cops would go, oh, okay, no wonder you beat her, oh well. But no, they said it didn't matter WHAT happened, what she did or didn't do, he had no right or no call to hurt her, end of story, they cuffed him and took him away. There is no reason, no poll, no story in this world that will make me understand and accept what those Iraqis did. It seems like so many of you are thinking, well who can blame them after the way the Americans treated them! You might deny it but that's exactly how it looks.


Quote:
Unless/until we can change that idea (or leave the area), there will be more of these attacks. Sadly.

C ya!

Marty
Personally, I'm for leaving. I don't know what you bleeding heart types think you can do to change this, they don't think like you, hell even I don't think like you and you can't change my mind, what makes you think you can completely change a person's raising, culture, society, attitude and makeup just by trying to be nice? Nice people fixing the power station were killed, and so would you be if you went over there. You're wasting your time defending them, they don't deserve it.

You would be better to put more energy into feeling sorry for the people in that SUV who suffered in horror, died horribly, and then had their remains treated in disrespectful ways, and their families back home who must be agonizing and grieving over having their loved ones suffer such a fate. Other than Anitram, I have seen not one ounce of sympathy for these people, but there has been plenty for the Iraqis who did this to them. I can't say how physically ill that makes me.
__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 11:03 AM   #55
The Fly
 
Wild Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 188
Local Time: 06:42 AM
If ppl want to fight the invaders so much they should join the army and fight them off.

Nah too risky, it's easier to attack unarmed civilians.
__________________
Wild Angel is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 11:52 AM   #56
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this.
I think that a lot of this happens in other countries, in other wars, be it the resistance in WWII, the guerilla in Vietnam, Afghanistan (not only today, but all the time in history), former Yugoslavia, etc. When an enemy country invades your country, you fight them. You fight the military, you try to destroy their infrastructure and you fight those who collaborate with the enemy. That's what happens in a war. Nowadays, it isn't just an army against another army, it's affecting the whole population.

Quote:
I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.
I didn't post this to justify the action, as it wasn't a just action.
BTW, how would you react when an enemy force (be it communist Sovjet-Union or the Al-Qaeda network) invades your country, an invasion that kills civilians (not intended) and then occupies your country. How would you react against the military, the foreigners helping them and those of your own people helping them? Would saying "please don't " be enough for them to get scared and go away?

C ya!

Marty
__________________
Popmartijn is online now  
Old 06-16-2004, 11:59 AM   #57
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


Oh so you are saying that because of the pillowcases on the heads of some Iraqi prisoners, they feel like they have the right to torture, kill and celebrate over the bodies of people who had nothing to do with it? Even though I do not accept that as a legitmate reason, I knew that anyway, but still don't see how it comes close to making excuses for them, don't forget that the first SUV attack happened before the prisoner thing. If they wanted to get even for that they could have put sacks on their heads and photographed them with dog leashes, even smeared doo on them, they didn't have to kill them and burn them.



So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this. I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.

I also want an answer to my question about hate crime. This was a hate crime, the people were killed because of their nationality. I ask again, if a person is killed because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation, like the gay guy who was tortured, killed and nailed to a fence out in Wyoming a few years back, would you be coming up with 'reasons' why they did it? Would you care to 'see the other side' about what in their pasts made them do it? Would you be digging up and posting links about how they felt leading to why they did it? No, you'd just say, they were sick, evil, ignorant bastards, and there is no excuse. I agree, and that's also how I feel about the Iraqis who did this.

I don't know how to explain any more than I have that their hate for us, and their reasons for hating us, don't justifiy this, explain it, or make it more understandable in any way. I'll try one other analogy you'll only make fun of, but here goes. I saw one of those Real Stories of the Highway patrol shows where they film calls they go on. There was a woman who had been beaten by her husband, who had fled to a friend's nearby trailer. The cops found the husband and asked him if he beat his wife. He said, yes, he did, because she didn't do the dishes or vaccum the floor, she yelled at him in humiliated him in front of his friends, and he went on to list reasons he beat her as if the cops would go, oh, okay, no wonder you beat her, oh well. But no, they said it didn't matter WHAT happened, what she did or didn't do, he had no right or no call to hurt her, end of story, they cuffed him and took him away. There is no reason, no poll, no story in this world that will make me understand and accept what those Iraqis did. It seems like so many of you are thinking, well who can blame them after the way the Americans treated them! You might deny it but that's exactly how it looks.




Personally, I'm for leaving. I don't know what you bleeding heart types think you can do to change this, they don't think like you, hell even I don't think like you and you can't change my mind, what makes you think you can completely change a person's raising, culture, society, attitude and makeup just by trying to be nice? Nice people fixing the power station were killed, and so would you be if you went over there. You're wasting your time defending them, they don't deserve it.

You would be better to put more energy into feeling sorry for the people in that SUV who suffered in horror, died horribly, and then had their remains treated in disrespectful ways, and their families back home who must be agonizing and grieving over having their loved ones suffer such a fate. Other than Anitram, I have seen not one ounce of sympathy for these people, but there has been plenty for the Iraqis who did this to them. I can't say how physically ill that makes me.
It doesn't matter whether or not we agree with their reasoning. I don't know how many times I can say that exact phrase, or variations of it, before it gets through to you. Obviously, no one in this thread agrees that they were justified in their reaction, but this is what happened, and those are their feelings behind it. To oversimplify things by essentially saying, "Oh so we put some bags over their heads, they need to get over it," is frankly disgusting, and willfully ignores the ACTUAL situation and its broader implications. I actually can't believe that you think that things are that simple, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that kind of thinking, since that's what's led to this mess anyway.

To address your statement about hate crimes (even though you've ignored any questions or statements directed at you, preferring instead to just spout off more rhetoric), I think the difference between hate crimes and the current situation in Iraq is the scope. Your analogy about the beaten wife holds very little water because it essentially absolves the US from any wrongdoing, or mishandling of the situation. I AM NOT SAYING THAT AMERICA/AMERICANS deserve the all the hatred directed towards them, NOR AM I SAYING that the attacks were justified. However, the Iraqis, in their view, see themselves as the battered wife, lashing out against the bigger, stronger abusive husband. They view us as occupiers who have abused their power. And in that, they're right. To say it again so you don't think I looooove terrorists, that is not a good reason to kill people. But that's what they're doing, and that's their reasoning. But you refuse to see that. You'd rather just see them as evil, end of story. The problem with that line of reasoning is that it paints you into a corner. And indeed, no matter how much you decry the "bleeding heart liberal" approach, you've yet to offer any alternative besides trying and arresting them. And while that works in the short term it doesn't address the larger problem. The fact is that both sides have dirty hands in this mess, and since the Iraqis won't take the high ground and try to resolve the situation with less violence, then it falls to the US to do it. And that means winning the war of "hearts and minds." That's not just more liberal bs either, and you know it.

Regarding my feelings about the deaths, I think it's terrible. (Didn't I already say something like this?) I have thought about it quite a bit, and actually had a nightmare about that situation last night. However I think it's a waste to pour all of my energy and feelings towards the situation into "feeling sorry" for the people who died. Yes, I do feel sad, and yes I do feel horrified, but that's not enough. I want to think about how to resolve this situation so that more people don't die. I see their deaths as unnecessary and preventable. To just pour all of my feelings into feeling sorry for them is just wallowing, and that's not productive.

Not that I expect you to read or respond to any of this.
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 12:21 PM   #58
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM


All I see are a couple of guys going to great lengths and great detail to make excuses for and plead understanding and justification for a heinous and brutal murder.

__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 12:24 PM   #59
Refugee
 
ThatGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Vertigo
Posts: 1,277
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Well then I obviously gave you too much credit. You have apparently not read anything I've said.
__________________
ThatGuy is offline  
Old 06-16-2004, 12:34 PM   #60
War Child
 
BluberryPoptart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 532
Local Time: 11:42 AM
You can't get beyond this

Quote:
However, the Iraqis, in their view,
That's what makes it seem to me that you are saying their actions are justifiable and understandable. I'm saying, regardless of how they see it, there are ways to fight. Protest, as Verte76 said. Join the military, as Wildangel said. I will not excuse or accept any reasoning behing such despicable acts as blowing somebody up and dancing over their dead body. Never, for no reason.

Go ahead and go over there and try your 'bleeding heart' approach on them, and see how fast your dead mutilated body ends up on TV or online.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about hate crimes. If someone killed and mutilated a person because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation you would not be coming up with excuses of how they feel or view things, it would be a disgraceful and evil crime and their reasons for doing it would not matter. I say the same should apply here.
__________________

__________________
BluberryPoptart is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com