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Old 06-15-2004, 03:09 PM   #31
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Originally posted by verte76


All they did was pick up signs and march through the streets. This is what they should be doing.
That's right they should, but sadly most of the people in the streets over there aren't programmed for such rational behavior. The mob mentality rules, and they can't see that it's wrong. I'm glad to know some factions have civilized methods.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:27 PM   #32
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But there have been several who give you the 'what did you expect' and 'think how they feel' stuff which makes it look like that. No matter what, this is never the way to do things, and never excusible. Attacking random vehicles full of people coming down the road, causing and rejoicing in their hideous demise, that's no way to vent your anger, no way to do anything but prove what a total uncivilized idiot you are.

I also disagree it's the same as collateral damage, which is almost always unintentional and the result of miscalculations. There was also collateral damage here, killing their own 'Iraqi brothers' and damaging their own town. If they don't take better precautions in their attacks they can't complain when other people do it. Honestly, if I were a U S soldier and I witnessed the dancing around the bodies I'd have been temped to shoot them dead myself. It's sickening, and it's sickening to see anyone try to make any kind of excuses for them or their ways.
Listing reasons why they did it is far different from condoning the actions themselves. Perhaps they should have made their objectios to the actions more explicit, but there was nothing that indicated that they supported them, either. I had really hoped this debate wouldn't sink into the false dichotomy of "Why do you hate America?"

It's interesting, though, that you can see why US soldiers might want to retaliate wuth violence, but are determined to not see the other side.*


*I AM NOT CONDONING THESE ATTACKS.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:35 PM   #33
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Oh for God's sake we see the 'other side' but it doesn't matter, there is no excuse at all, or sympathy for anyone attacking innocent civilians coming to your town to fix your power station just because they are of the same nationality as someone who did something to you that you didn't like. How ignoramous! What a hate crime! I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is, there is no excuse and should be no understanding or benefit of the doubt for someone so vile. Yes I said vile. Wanna hear MY other side?
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:37 PM   #34
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Originally posted by ThatGuy

It's interesting, though, that you can see why US soldiers might want to retaliate wuth violence, but are determined to not see the other side.*


*I AM NOT CONDONING THESE ATTACKS.


Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart

we see the 'other side'
...
I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is
...
Wanna hear MY other side?
Uh, no, I don't. Thanks anyway.
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:43 PM   #35
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Ah, how nice! Leave out all my explainations and delete all my words except the ones that suit your needs of showing me in the worst possible context!

Of course delete all the things 'they' did, it's only 'us' that are evil.

Of course you don't want to hear my other side, or anything I have to say, I disagree with you and I am therefore wrong. And people like you call other people closed minded! Looks like you shut the door on yours and lost the key!

Go ahead and take their side, feel sorry for them, think how it was all they could do after those evil Bushies invaded their country! If it were you in that SUV you'd be dead and burned right now too, and they'd be dancing around your body. They'd never ask what you thought or what side you were on. You're an American and they hate you. It's a hate crime!
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Old 06-15-2004, 04:57 PM   #36
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Ah, how nice! Leave out all my explainations and delete all my words except the ones that suit your needs of showing me in the worst possible context!

Of course delete all the things 'they' did, it's only 'us' that are evil.

Of course you don't want to hear my other side, or anything I have to say, I disagree with you and I am therefore wrong. And people like you call other people closed minded! Looks like you shut the door on yours and lost the key!

Go ahead and take their side, feel sorry for them, think how it was all they could do after those evil Bushies invaded their country! If it were you in that SUV you'd be dead and burned right now too, and they'd be dancing around your body. They'd never ask what you thought or what side you were on. You're an American and they hate you. It's a hate crime!
You're spouting off cliches right and left, and assuming quite a bit. But you must, you must see the irony of the position you're taking. You absolutely refuse to see both sides of the issue, but you have an apoplectic fit if someone doesn't want to listen to what YOU have to say.

Seeing both sides of an issue does not give them equal weight. I can see both sides of an issue without agreeing with the side I consider to be in error. And just because I don't agree with it does not mean that I am dismissing it, nor should it. The refusal to deal with both sides of an issue, the good and the bad, are part of what has gotten us into this problem in Iraq in the first place.
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:06 PM   #37
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Originally posted by ThatGuy


You're spouting off cliches right and left, and assuming quite a bit. But you must, you must see the irony of the position you're taking. You absolutely refuse to see both sides of the issue, but you have an apoplectic fit if someone doesn't want to listen to what YOU have to say.

Seeing both sides of an issue does not give them equal weight. I can see both sides of an issue without agreeing with the side I consider to be in error. And just because I don't agree with it does not mean that I am dismissing it, nor should it. The refusal to deal with both sides of an issue, the good and the bad, are part of what has gotten us into this problem in Iraq in the first place.
For the last time, I SEE BOTH SIDES BUT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME, their crime is still vile and inexcusible!! Oh, I know, bad bad old America came over and invaded and tore up their country! If we weren't there it would never happen, is that what you mean? I don't buy that! I'm not happy we're there either, but we are, and random people coming down the street should not be targeted because of their nationality, or because someone of the same nationality did something they didn't like. Why can't you people see this is a vicious HATE CRIME with no justifcation?

All I can see that you're getting at is that because we were there and we did things they didn't like it's only understandable that they are going to lash out in the only ways they know how and you somehow excuse them for that, but I'm not buying it. What else could you possibly mean by 'other side' except that we are supposed to feel sorry for them and excuse anything they do because America is so bad? That's what it sounds like to me. You keep saying you don't excuse it, but I think you must or you wouldn't keep going on about the 'other side' as if it's okay they did it because of how they feel. I will never accept that.

Both sides? In a war, I can see how people in another country are not going to like being invaded and are going to fight back. So military against military I can go along with that. People get killed in a war, and true if we weren't there our people would not be dying. But there is a difference between that and attacking civilians at random, not accidently, but on purpose. There is also a difference between just killing someone and dancing over the dead body. There's really nothing else I can say, and it won't do any good anyway, I'll just get my post quoted with most of the words gone. How would some of you like it if I did that to you? It would be easy to do to anyone's post.

I did NOT spout cliches', I thought I made up the closed door one on the spur of the moment.
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:18 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Oh for God's sake we see the 'other side' but it doesn't matter, there is no excuse at all, or sympathy for anyone attacking innocent civilians coming to your town to fix your power station just because they are of the same nationality as someone who did something to you that you didn't like. How ignoramous! What a hate crime! I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is, there is no excuse and should be no understanding or benefit of the doubt for someone so vile. Yes I said vile. Wanna hear MY other side?
Ok, there. All the words are back. And it still sounds

You're all over the place, poptart. Chill out.
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:19 PM   #39
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart


For the last time, I SEE BOTH SIDES BUT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME, their crime is still vile and inexcusible!! Oh, I know, bad bad old America came over and invaded and tore up their country! If we weren't there it would never happen, is that what you mean? I don't buy that! I'm not happy we're there either, but we are, and random people coming down the street should not be targeted because of their nationality, or because someone of the same nationality did something they didn't like. Why can't you people see this is a vicious HATE CRIME with no justifcation?

All I can see that you're getting at is that because we were there and we did things they didn't like it's only understandable that they are going to lash out in the only ways they know how and you somehow excuse them for that, but I'm not buying it.

I did NOT spout cliches', I thought I made up the closed door one on the spur of the moment.
Well at least you can admit that you made them up, and not try to pin them on me or others in the thread, 'Cause, you know, we didn't say those things. Nothing like them, actually.

I can't see how seeing both sides but saying that one makes no difference is any different than just outright ignoring that side. If you really saw both sides of an issue, this one especially, you would understand how important it is not to ignore them.

Why are they attacking us? Is it because they're evil? Just pure evil, born and raised only with the intent on making sure that we're dead? Now, before you make up anything else, please understand that I AM NOT SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH THE REASONING BEHIND THE ATTACKERS ACTIONS. THIS IS THE SECOND TIME I'VE SAID IT. MAYBE YOU'LL READ IT IF IT'S BOLDED AND IN CAPS. Now, if we can understand why they hate us and want to kill us(WITHOUT NECESSARILY AGREEING WITH THEM)then maybe we can take steps to stop them. Because you can't stop them by just killing them. You're never going to kill them all, and new ones will just pop up in their place anyway. Surely Israel has proven this point. Sort of like Whatck-A-Mole. But if we try to understand why they do what they do, then perhaps we can end it. To label one side as "evil" without even attempting to understand their motives is no better than what the terrorists are doing. Single-minded fanaticism is not what we should be striving for, because the other side already has us there.

Now you may tell me how much I love the terrorists, and how I should just move to Iraq if I love them so much. Go ahead. Please don't listen to anything I've said (EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME) though I have given you that respect ever since we started this debate.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to address another issue you brought up. I didn't mean that we wouldn't be in this mess if we hadn't gone over there and invaded their country (though, you have to admit, that is a good point). What I was talking about was the Bush administration's ignoring experts' reports on how the situation might be after the fall of Saddam, and instead believing the pie-in-the-sky-you'll-be-greeted-as-liberators fantasy that Chalabi and Co. fed them. It shouldn't come as a surprise that post=Saddam Iraq is a mess. It was predicted before the war began. But since the administration refused to see both sides of the issue and instead saw only the side that they liked, the worst has happened without a good plan to make it better.
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:25 PM   #40
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I think everyone understands and knows all that. We know why they hate us, and there is nothing we can do to stop that, even if we did do everything you think should be done, it would take years and several generations for it to get out of their culture and mindset. Everybody knows why they hate us, and nobody is refusing to see it. But what happened in that street, and the other time, and the beheading of the guy are such inhuman, uncivilized, prehistoric acts of ignorance and extremism they really don't deserve anyone's consideration at all. You will NOT kill a hate that strong no matter what you do. If you want to see the other side so much than consider that they (extremists) are totally different from Americans and Europeans, and there is no way you can reach them in the ways you think you can.
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:02 PM   #41
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Degrading an opponent to sub-human status is an effective way of washing your hands of any wrongdoing on your part. Are you really saying that they are so different than us that we have no choice but to kill them? Is it because an alternative solution is impossible, or because it is too hard? If we do do nothing but kill them, then what's to keep new ones from springing up in their place. Despite what you may believe it is impossible to kill every terrorist. We can keep trying, but I don't see that bringing an end to the attacks. Again, Israel.

Thanks for not putting any more words in my mouth.



Edited for clarity.
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:06 PM   #42
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I think everyone understands and knows all that. We know why they hate us,
Then why DO they hate us?
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:08 PM   #43
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Well we know why they hate us, but it doesn't matter because their crime is still vile and inexcusable.

Edited to add:
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:15 PM   #44
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Yes and our crimes are inexcusable too - so as long as we call for revenge this wheel keeps on turning
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Old 06-15-2004, 06:29 PM   #45
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Klaus, why do you hate America?
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