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Old 06-15-2004, 09:24 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
I read the article twice and yes many celebrated the initial burning, nobody was hung from any bride and bystanders helped the wounded.

Don't get me wrong it stinks and I hate the killing, but it didn't go down the way the post said.
I saw the story on the news and tried to find a link. I only skimmed the story and this is what I mistook for the bridge part. They were comparing it to the last attack like this. Sorry I misread it.

The chaotic scene Monday was reminiscent of the violence and anti-American hatred that accompanied the March 31 slaying in Fallujah of four Americans, whose bodies were mutilated and hung from a Euphrates river bridge.

As for your bystanders helping the wounded, those weren't the people in the SUV they were helping, but local Iraqis hurt when the bomb went off:

[B]An Interior Ministry official said 13 people were killed in the blast, including the five foreigners.

The bomb exploded as three SUVs carrying the contractors were passing through the square. The blast destroyed eight vehicles and turned nearby shops and a two-story house to rubble.

Terrified and dazed survivors scrambled to pull victims from the wreckage. One elderly man, pale and semiconscious, was carried away in his blood-soaked nightclothes.

Iraqi bystanders scooped up victims and loaded them into vehicles or pickup trucks to speed them to hospitals. Body parts and fragments of clothing lay scattered around the street.

An Interior Ministry official said 13 people were killed in the blast, including the five foreigners.

The bomb exploded as three SUVs carrying the contractors were passing through the square. The blast destroyed eight vehicles and turned nearby shops and a two-story house to rubble.

Terrified and dazed survivors scrambled to pull victims from the wreckage. One elderly man, pale and semiconscious, was carried away in his blood-soaked nightclothes.

Iraqi bystanders scooped up victims and loaded them into vehicles or pickup trucks to speed them to hospitals. Body parts and fragments of clothing lay scattered around the street.


The bomb also destroyed someone's home and some stores. Eight Iraqis were killed and several more wounded. That's who the bystanders were helping, I hope you didn't think it was the westerners! Even if someone did want to help, they'd have been attacked by the anti-American mob! Ignorant bastards wanted to kill Americans so bad they killed 4 people in the SUV from other countries, 8 of their own people, damaged their own businesses, and hurt their chances of getting their power station back. Brilliant
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Old 06-15-2004, 09:27 AM   #17
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U2Kitten:

No!
They didn't deserve it.
If it would hapen to Iraqi civilists we'd call it "colaterale damage"

I just want you to understand the iraqi side. If you don't understand it what you might call "the enemy" you won't understand what's going to hapen down there.

Just remember that even UN envoy Lakhdar Brahimi called Mr. Bremer 'the dictator' of Iraq.
If even western people think like that - how much more might arab people hate us down there?

And imagine for a moment that people feel that the US might just install another dictator in iraq - would it surprise you that they hate US soldiers?
So.. to stop that WE have to send them signals that we are liberators not new dictators after what's hapened (and what i mentioned in other postings before).
It's much easier to invade a country than to convince people who lost innocent beloved family, relatives and friends that we are honest men and don't make war because of revenge, strategic influense or money.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:02 AM   #18
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I hate a lot of people for a lot of reasons, but I'm not blowing anyone up or cutting any heads off or dancing over any bodies. We all have rage, you don't act like this.

One of the guys also claimed he saw an Israeli flag on the car, probably not true, but it also shows their blanket hatred for Jews too. To want someone to die because of their nationality, religion, or beliefs, and to dance over their dead body, is wrong. I know what you're saying about how they feel, I already know the stuff you posted, but it doesn't help justify this one little bit. It would serve them right if we all just left and let them fix up their own mess.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:21 AM   #19
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U2Kitten:

You're absolutely right! it's no justification what i posted wasn't ment as justification it was just written to understand their behaviour, not to say that it's good or just.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:26 AM   #20
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I understand the rationale behind their behavior, but it does them no credit in my book.
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Old 06-15-2004, 10:31 AM   #21
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Lakhdar Brahimi is not exactly what I would call western. Born in Algeria, representative of the Arab League, what he said was window dressing to give the UN some credibility in the eyes of the Iraqi people, after the Oil for NO-food Scam in not suprised.

I don't think that the Iraqi side want's to see violence, I think that they want to get on with their lives in peace. It is for this reason that they will see the US and coalition as a necissary evil until they have a real police force.

On the flipside you have the Baathists and Terrorists who do not want Democracy to suceed in Iraq, they want chaos. If they get chaos there is a good chance that the US will withdraw early and will be unable to intervine in the ME for some time. They would also score a brand new country to run as a terrorist hotbed.

It is really very simple, Iraqis are a lot better off now that Saddam is gone and the country has not decended into total anarchy with hundreds of thousands of casualties and massive starvation as the anti-war movement would have us believe before the war. Life in Iraq is getting better daily, we have handed sovereignty over in terms of Oil Revenue, Water Distribution as well as instituted a new navy that guards the port of Umm Qasr on its own.

Iraq is a lot better now that Saddam has been deposed and the country is back on track rebuilding, it is going very well considering the state of the infrastructure under Saddam and the sheer beurocracy created in his quasi-socialist dictatorship that prevented proper economic development. Can somebody tell me how Iraq looks worse off now than it did in 2002?
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Old 06-15-2004, 11:01 AM   #22
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Would you call Kofi Anan a western person? i would, call both western persons. not because of where they came from but because of their todays lifestyle
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Old 06-15-2004, 11:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I understand the rationale behind their behavior, but it does them no credit in my book.
Of course not. This is the way *not* to handle a situation like this. The right way to handle it would be non-violent demonstrations. I've seen non-violent demonstrators in Iraq protesting against Sadr's militia. If they want the U.S. out of these they should have demonstrations. They can do it. It's been done.
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Old 06-15-2004, 01:13 PM   #24
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Agreed 100% Verte, but we've killed over 10,000 civilians in the aggression. I'd imagine their hatred has cause. They have no one to take it out on except foreigners.

I've also seen the tapes of GI's shooting and whooping it up when they kill a wounded man.

This doesn't excuse either side, just points to the horrors of war.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
Agreed 100% Verte, but we've killed over 10,000 civilians in the aggression. I'd imagine their hatred has cause. They have no one to take it out on except foreigners. <clip>
This doesn't excuse either side, just points to the horrors of war.
True, there's cause. That's not really my point. My point is that there are effective and ineffective ways to push for change. The most effective way is to have demonstrations and sit-ins, a la Gandhi and MLK. I think they wrote the textbook on how to make meaningful changes in the human rights arena. The Wahhabist "jihad" school of thought is so backwards and primitive IMHO. One of Gandhi's sidekicks was a Muslim, I forget his name, but they should be following him not the Wahhabists.
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:31 PM   #26
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Originally posted by verte76
True, there's cause.
Cause?
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:35 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Cause?
I do believe there are people here who think we have it coming for being bad and they don't really blame the Iraqis for stuf like this
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Old 06-15-2004, 02:51 PM   #28
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Cause and effect. I haven't seen anyone here say that the actions were justified, or right because the US is evil and we had it coming. It's just about cause and effect.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:03 PM   #29
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But there have been several who give you the 'what did you expect' and 'think how they feel' stuff which makes it look like that. No matter what, this is never the way to do things, and never excusible. Attacking random vehicles full of people coming down the road, causing and rejoicing in their hideous demise, that's no way to vent your anger, no way to do anything but prove what a total uncivilized idiot you are.

I also disagree it's the same as collateral damage, which is almost always unintentional and the result of miscalculations. There was also collateral damage here, killing their own 'Iraqi brothers' and damaging their own town. If they don't take better precautions in their attacks they can't complain when other people do it. Honestly, if I were a U S soldier and I witnessed the dancing around the bodies I'd have been temped to shoot them dead myself. It's sickening, and it's sickening to see anyone try to make any kind of excuses for them or their ways.
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Old 06-15-2004, 03:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Cause and effect. I haven't seen anyone here say that the actions were justified, or right because the US is evil and we had it coming. It's just about cause and effect.
That's right. I'm not about to say there's anything moral about what they did, because there's not. But I think I might be pissed off if someone had come in and bombed the heck out of my town, even if they also overthrew the horrid dictator I despised. There's no excuse for the killings. They should be having peaceful demonstrations. In fact, there have been peaceful demonstrations protesting certain things in Iraq lately. The people in Fallujah had a demonstration against Sadr. Last year some Shias, I believe, demonstrated against something the Coalition was doing. All they did was pick up signs and march through the streets. This is what they should be doing.
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