It happened AGAIN

[BluberryPoptart]

All they did was pick up signs and march through the streets. This is what they should be doing.

That's right they should, but sadly most of the people in the streets over there aren't programmed for such rational behavior. The mob mentality rules, and they can't see that it's wrong. I'm glad to know some factions have civilized methods.

 

[ThatGuy]

But there have been several who give you the 'what did you expect' and 'think how they feel' stuff which makes it look like that. No matter what, this is never the way to do things, and never excusible. Attacking random vehicles full of people coming down the road, causing and rejoicing in their hideous demise, that's no way to vent your anger, no way to do anything but prove what a total uncivilized idiot you are.

I also disagree it's the same as collateral damage, which is almost always unintentional and the result of miscalculations. There was also collateral damage here, killing their own 'Iraqi brothers' and damaging their own town. If they don't take better precautions in their attacks they can't complain when other people do it. Honestly, if I were a U S soldier and I witnessed the dancing around the bodies I'd have been temped to shoot them dead myself. It's sickening, and it's sickening to see anyone try to make any kind of excuses for them or their ways.

Listing reasons why they did it is far different from condoning the actions themselves. Perhaps they should have made their objectios to the actions more explicit, but there was nothing that indicated that they supported them, either. I had really hoped this debate wouldn't sink into the false dichotomy of "Why do you hate America?"

It's interesting, though, that you can see why US soldiers might want to retaliate wuth violence, but are determined to not see the other side.*


*I AM NOT CONDONING THESE ATTACKS.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Oh for God's sake we see the 'other side' but it doesn't matter, there is no excuse at all, or sympathy for anyone attacking innocent civilians coming to your town to fix your power station just because they are of the same nationality as someone who did something to you that you didn't like. How ignoramous! What a hate crime! I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is, there is no excuse and should be no understanding or benefit of the doubt for someone so vile. Yes I said vile. Wanna hear MY other side?

 

[joyfulgirl]

It's interesting, though, that you can see why US soldiers might want to retaliate wuth violence, but are determined to not see the other side.*


*I AM NOT CONDONING THESE ATTACKS.

we see the 'other side'
...
I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is
...
Wanna hear MY other side?

Uh, no, I don't. Thanks anyway.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Ah, how nice! Leave out all my explainations and delete all my words except the ones that suit your needs of showing me in the worst possible context!

Of course delete all the things 'they' did, it's only 'us' that are evil.

Of course you don't want to hear my other side, or anything I have to say, I disagree with you and I am therefore wrong. And people like you call other people closed minded! Looks like you shut the door on yours and lost the key!

Go ahead and take their side, feel sorry for them, think how it was all they could do after those evil Bushies invaded their country! If it were you in that SUV you'd be dead and burned right now too, and they'd be dancing around your body. They'd never ask what you thought or what side you were on. You're an American and they hate you. It's a hate crime!

 

[ThatGuy]

Ah, how nice! Leave out all my explainations and delete all my words except the ones that suit your needs of showing me in the worst possible context!

Of course delete all the things 'they' did, it's only 'us' that are evil.

Of course you don't want to hear my other side, or anything I have to say, I disagree with you and I am therefore wrong. And people like you call other people closed minded! Looks like you shut the door on yours and lost the key!

Go ahead and take their side, feel sorry for them, think how it was all they could do after those evil Bushies invaded their country! If it were you in that SUV you'd be dead and burned right now too, and they'd be dancing around your body. They'd never ask what you thought or what side you were on. You're an American and they hate you. It's a hate crime!

You're spouting off cliches right and left, and assuming quite a bit. But you must, you must see the irony of the position you're taking. You absolutely refuse to see both sides of the issue, but you have an apoplectic fit if someone doesn't want to listen to what YOU have to say.

Seeing both sides of an issue does not give them equal weight. I can see both sides of an issue without agreeing with the side I consider to be in error. And just because I don't agree with it does not mean that I am dismissing it, nor should it. The refusal to deal with both sides of an issue, the good and the bad, are part of what has gotten us into this problem in Iraq in the first place.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

You're spouting off cliches right and left, and assuming quite a bit. But you must, you must see the irony of the position you're taking. You absolutely refuse to see both sides of the issue, but you have an apoplectic fit if someone doesn't want to listen to what YOU have to say.

Seeing both sides of an issue does not give them equal weight. I can see both sides of an issue without agreeing with the side I consider to be in error. And just because I don't agree with it does not mean that I am dismissing it, nor should it. The refusal to deal with both sides of an issue, the good and the bad, are part of what has gotten us into this problem in Iraq in the first place.

For the last time, I SEE BOTH SIDES BUT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME, their crime is still vile and inexcusible!! Oh, I know, bad bad old America came over and invaded and tore up their country! If we weren't there it would never happen, is that what you mean? I don't buy that! I'm not happy we're there either, but we are, and random people coming down the street should not be targeted because of their nationality, or because someone of the same nationality did something they didn't like. Why can't you people see this is a vicious HATE CRIME with no justifcation?

All I can see that you're getting at is that because we were there and we did things they didn't like it's only understandable that they are going to lash out in the only ways they know how and you somehow excuse them for that, but I'm not buying it. What else could you possibly mean by 'other side' except that we are supposed to feel sorry for them and excuse anything they do because America is so bad? That's what it sounds like to me. You keep saying you don't excuse it, but I think you must or you wouldn't keep going on about the 'other side' as if it's okay they did it because of how they feel. I will never accept that.

Both sides? In a war, I can see how people in another country are not going to like being invaded and are going to fight back. So military against military I can go along with that. People get killed in a war, and true if we weren't there our people would not be dying. But there is a difference between that and attacking civilians at random, not accidently, but on purpose. There is also a difference between just killing someone and dancing over the dead body. There's really nothing else I can say, and it won't do any good anyway, I'll just get my post quoted with most of the words gone. How would some of you like it if I did that to you? It would be easy to do to anyone's post.

I did NOT spout cliches', I thought I made up the closed door one on the spur of the moment.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Oh for God's sake we see the 'other side' but it doesn't matter, there is no excuse at all, or sympathy for anyone attacking innocent civilians coming to your town to fix your power station just because they are of the same nationality as someone who did something to you that you didn't like. How ignoramous! What a hate crime! I don't give a flying rat's ass what the other side is, there is no excuse and should be no understanding or benefit of the doubt for someone so vile. Yes I said vile. Wanna hear MY other side?

Ok, there. All the words are back. And it still sounds

You're all over the place, poptart. Chill out.

 

[ThatGuy]

For the last time, I SEE BOTH SIDES BUT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME, their crime is still vile and inexcusible!! Oh, I know, bad bad old America came over and invaded and tore up their country! If we weren't there it would never happen, is that what you mean? I don't buy that! I'm not happy we're there either, but we are, and random people coming down the street should not be targeted because of their nationality, or because someone of the same nationality did something they didn't like. Why can't you people see this is a vicious HATE CRIME with no justifcation?

All I can see that you're getting at is that because we were there and we did things they didn't like it's only understandable that they are going to lash out in the only ways they know how and you somehow excuse them for that, but I'm not buying it.

I did NOT spout cliches', I thought I made up the closed door one on the spur of the moment.

Well at least you can admit that you made them up, and not try to pin them on me or others in the thread, 'Cause, you know, we didn't say those things. Nothing like them, actually.

I can't see how seeing both sides but saying that one makes no difference is any different than just outright ignoring that side. If you really saw both sides of an issue, this one especially, you would understand how important it is not to ignore them.

Why are they attacking us? Is it because they're evil? Just pure evil, born and raised only with the intent on making sure that we're dead? Now, before you make up anything else, please understand that I AM NOT SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH THE REASONING BEHIND THE ATTACKERS ACTIONS. THIS IS THE SECOND TIME I'VE SAID IT. MAYBE YOU'LL READ IT IF IT'S BOLDED AND IN CAPS. Now, if we can understand why they hate us and want to kill us(WITHOUT NECESSARILY AGREEING WITH THEM)then maybe we can take steps to stop them. Because you can't stop them by just killing them. You're never going to kill them all, and new ones will just pop up in their place anyway. Surely Israel has proven this point. Sort of like Whatck-A-Mole. But if we try to understand why they do what they do, then perhaps we can end it. To label one side as "evil" without even attempting to understand their motives is no better than what the terrorists are doing. Single-minded fanaticism is not what we should be striving for, because the other side already has us there.

Now you may tell me how much I love the terrorists, and how I should just move to Iraq if I love them so much. Go ahead. Please don't listen to anything I've said (EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME) though I have given you that respect ever since we started this debate.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to address another issue you brought up. I didn't mean that we wouldn't be in this mess if we hadn't gone over there and invaded their country (though, you have to admit, that is a good point). What I was talking about was the Bush administration's ignoring experts' reports on how the situation might be after the fall of Saddam, and instead believing the pie-in-the-sky-you'll-be-greeted-as-liberators fantasy that Chalabi and Co. fed them. It shouldn't come as a surprise that post=Saddam Iraq is a mess. It was predicted before the war began. But since the administration refused to see both sides of the issue and instead saw only the side that they liked, the worst has happened without a good plan to make it better.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

I think everyone understands and knows all that. We know why they hate us, and there is nothing we can do to stop that, even if we did do everything you think should be done, it would take years and several generations for it to get out of their culture and mindset. Everybody knows why they hate us, and nobody is refusing to see it. But what happened in that street, and the other time, and the beheading of the guy are such inhuman, uncivilized, prehistoric acts of ignorance and extremism they really don't deserve anyone's consideration at all. You will NOT kill a hate that strong no matter what you do. If you want to see the other side so much than consider that they (extremists) are totally different from Americans and Europeans, and there is no way you can reach them in the ways you think you can.

 

[ThatGuy]

Degrading an opponent to sub-human status is an effective way of washing your hands of any wrongdoing on your part. Are you really saying that they are so different than us that we have no choice but to kill them? Is it because an alternative solution is impossible, or because it is too hard? If we do do nothing but kill them, then what's to keep new ones from springing up in their place. Despite what you may believe it is impossible to kill every terrorist. We can keep trying, but I don't see that bringing an end to the attacks. Again, Israel.

Thanks for not putting any more words in my mouth.



Edited for clarity.

 

[Popmartijn]

I think everyone understands and knows all that. We know why they hate us,

Then why DO they hate us?

 

[ThatGuy]

Well we know why they hate us, but it doesn't matter because their crime is still vile and inexcusable.

Edited to add:

 

[Klaus]

Yes and our crimes are inexcusable too - so as long as we call for revenge this wheel keeps on turning

 

[ThatGuy]

Klaus, why do you hate America?

 

[BluberryPoptart]

What revenge? Nobody killed them!!! They're still out there dancing as far as I know. Soldiers may have felt like shooting them, but nobody did!

What bothers me most is that there seems to be more sympathy for the guys who did this than for the people in the SUV, and that is twisted and wrong.

So, you all think that if we look at the reasons they hate us and change them this will stop? I doubt it.They think a different way. They are not like us and don't want to be, so you can't relate to them the way you would someone from western culture. They will always hate us, and Israel. It's part of their culture, has been for ages and it's not going away. Even if it ever did it would take at least a hundred years and several generations which is doing the people over there now no good.

The living proof of this is, the people they killed and burned were coming to HELP them, they were coming to fix the power station, for free. Isn't that nice? They didn't care. They were of the wrong nationality, and they killed them.

I also don't see the difference between this and any other unspeakable hate crime. If someone is killed because they are gay, or black, would it matter what the 'other side' was, or their reasons the killer(s) had for feeling the way they did when they killed them? Of course it wouldn't. It would be a vile, inexcusible act, just like what happened to those people in the SUV. They werre killed for one reason, they were from the wrong country.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Despite what you may believe it is impossible to kill every terrorist.


Edited for clarity.

No, I don't believe we can kill every terrorist. Terrorism is an idea, not an army, and it cannot be wiped out completely. I have never believed that, and I think a 'war on terrorism' is impossible and endless. However, I do think that when someone is caught in the act of doing what happend to those in the SUV, they should be dealt with the way any murder in the US would be.

 

[ThatGuy]

No, I don't believe we can kill every terrorist. Terrorism is an idea, not an army, and it cannot be wiped out completely. I have never believed that, and I think a 'war on terrorism' is impossible and endless. However, I do think that when someone is caught in the act of doing what happend to those in the SUV, they should be dealt with the way any murder in the US would be.

But you won't extend those same legal privileges to the Guantanamo detainees? If I were premium I'd look for that thread, but I believe you and I have already gone around and around on that one.

And absolute statements like "they will always hate us" just sound terribly defeatist to me. Honestly, why don't we just bomb them to oblivion if that's the attitude we're going to take. What's the good in doing anything to help them?

 

[BluberryPoptart]

Well, helping them fix their power plant didn't make them love us

And I am not talking about the Guantanamo detainees, that is a different situation and I don't feel like digging into another subject. I already have ulcers coming on from this one

 

[ThatGuy]

I didn't mean to give you ulcers. I was just pointing out the obvious contradiction in your statement.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

There are no contradictions. It's a completely different story, circumstances and discussion and gets off the subject here. There are plenty of threads on that if you want to talk about it.

 

[Klaus]

ThatGuy:
I love America but that dosn't mean that i love and support everything which is done by America.
Why? Because i love America

 

[Popmartijn]

So, you all think that if we look at the reasons they hate us and change them this will stop? I doubt it.They think a different way. They are not like us and don't want to be, so you can't relate to them the way you would someone from western culture. They will always hate us, and Israel. It's part of their culture, has been for ages and it's not going away. Even if it ever did it would take at least a hundred years and several generations which is doing the people over there now no good.

The living proof of this is, the people they killed and burned were coming to HELP them, they were coming to fix the power station, for free. Isn't that nice? They didn't care. They were of the wrong nationality, and they killed them.

The following post can belong in a lot of threads here, but I post it in this one as it also addresses some issues mentioned here. This is from the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/167/wash/U_S_poll_of_Iraqis_finds_wides:.shtml

U.S. poll of Iraqis finds widespread anger at prison abuse, worry about safety

By John Solomon, Associated Press, 6/15/2004 18:54

WASHINGTON (AP) A poll of Iraqis commissioned by the U.S.-governing authority has provided the Bush administration a stark picture of anti-American sentiment more than half of Iraqis believe they would be safer if U.S. troops simply left.

The poll, commissioned by the Coalition Provisional Authority last month but not released to the American public, also found radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is surging in popularity, 92 percent of Iraqis consider the United States an occupying force and more than half believe all Americans behave like those portrayed in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos.

[. . .]

Frustration over security was made worse this spring by revelations of sexual and physical abuse of Iraqis by U.S. guards at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The poll, taken in mid-May shortly after the controversy began, found 71 percent of Iraqis said they were surprised by the humiliating photos and tales of abuse at the hands of Americans, but 54 percent said they believed all Americans behave like the guards.

You can also see the poll results here: http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/cpapoll.htm

So while we are shocked and righteously angered by these attacks on those who wanted to repair a power plant, the Iraqi's see them as occupiers. So what they did was an act of resistance (in their eyes). So yes, they think in a different way at this very moment. They see their land occupied by a foreign power, a foreign power they should throw out of their country. You do that by resisting the occupier, by sabotaging their infrastructure, guessing that it'll damage them more than it damages you.
Unless/until we can change that idea (or leave the area), there will be more of these attacks. Sadly.

C ya!

Marty

 

[BluberryPoptart]

The following post can belong in a lot of threads here, but I post it in this one as it also addresses some issues mentioned here. This is from the Boston Globe:
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/167/wash/U_S_poll_of_Iraqis_finds_wides:.shtml



You can also see the poll results here: http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/cpapoll.htm

Oh so you are saying that because of the pillowcases on the heads of some Iraqi prisoners, they feel like they have the right to torture, kill and celebrate over the bodies of people who had nothing to do with it? Even though I do not accept that as a legitmate reason, I knew that anyway, but still don't see how it comes close to making excuses for them, don't forget that the first SUV attack happened before the prisoner thing. If they wanted to get even for that they could have put sacks on their heads and photographed them with dog leashes, even smeared doo on them, they didn't have to kill them and burn them.

So while we are shocked and righteously angered by these attacks on those who wanted to repair a power plant, the Iraqi's see them as occupiers. So what they did was an act of resistance (in their eyes). So yes, they think in a different way at this very moment. They see their land occupied by a foreign power, a foreign power they should throw out of their country. You do that by resisting the occupier, by sabotaging their infrastructure, guessing that it'll damage them more than it damages you.

So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this. I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.

I also want an answer to my question about hate crime. This was a hate crime, the people were killed because of their nationality. I ask again, if a person is killed because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation, like the gay guy who was tortured, killed and nailed to a fence out in Wyoming a few years back, would you be coming up with 'reasons' why they did it? Would you care to 'see the other side' about what in their pasts made them do it? Would you be digging up and posting links about how they felt leading to why they did it? No, you'd just say, they were sick, evil, ignorant bastards, and there is no excuse. I agree, and that's also how I feel about the Iraqis who did this.

I don't know how to explain any more than I have that their hate for us, and their reasons for hating us, don't justifiy this, explain it, or make it more understandable in any way. I'll try one other analogy you'll only make fun of, but here goes. I saw one of those Real Stories of the Highway patrol shows where they film calls they go on. There was a woman who had been beaten by her husband, who had fled to a friend's nearby trailer. The cops found the husband and asked him if he beat his wife. He said, yes, he did, because she didn't do the dishes or vaccum the floor, she yelled at him in humiliated him in front of his friends, and he went on to list reasons he beat her as if the cops would go, oh, okay, no wonder you beat her, oh well. But no, they said it didn't matter WHAT happened, what she did or didn't do, he had no right or no call to hurt her, end of story, they cuffed him and took him away. There is no reason, no poll, no story in this world that will make me understand and accept what those Iraqis did. It seems like so many of you are thinking, well who can blame them after the way the Americans treated them! You might deny it but that's exactly how it looks.

Unless/until we can change that idea (or leave the area), there will be more of these attacks. Sadly.

C ya!

Marty

Personally, I'm for leaving. I don't know what you bleeding heart types think you can do to change this, they don't think like you, hell even I don't think like you and you can't change my mind, what makes you think you can completely change a person's raising, culture, society, attitude and makeup just by trying to be nice? Nice people fixing the power station were killed, and so would you be if you went over there. You're wasting your time defending them, they don't deserve it.

You would be better to put more energy into feeling sorry for the people in that SUV who suffered in horror, died horribly, and then had their remains treated in disrespectful ways, and their families back home who must be agonizing and grieving over having their loved ones suffer such a fate. Other than Anitram, I have seen not one ounce of sympathy for these people, but there has been plenty for the Iraqis who did this to them. I can't say how physically ill that makes me.

 

[Wild Angel]

If ppl want to fight the invaders so much they should join the army and fight them off.

Nah too risky, it's easier to attack unarmed civilians.

 

[Popmartijn]

So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this.

I think that a lot of this happens in other countries, in other wars, be it the resistance in WWII, the guerilla in Vietnam, Afghanistan (not only today, but all the time in history), former Yugoslavia, etc. When an enemy country invades your country, you fight them. You fight the military, you try to destroy their infrastructure and you fight those who collaborate with the enemy. That's what happens in a war. Nowadays, it isn't just an army against another army, it's affecting the whole population.

I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.

I didn't post this to justify the action, as it wasn't a just action.
BTW, how would you react when an enemy force (be it communist Sovjet-Union or the Al-Qaeda network) invades your country, an invasion that kills civilians (not intended) and then occupies your country. How would you react against the military, the foreigners helping them and those of your own people helping them? Would saying "please don't " be enough for them to get scared and go away?

C ya!

Marty

 

[ThatGuy]

Oh so you are saying that because of the pillowcases on the heads of some Iraqi prisoners, they feel like they have the right to torture, kill and celebrate over the bodies of people who had nothing to do with it? Even though I do not accept that as a legitmate reason, I knew that anyway, but still don't see how it comes close to making excuses for them, don't forget that the first SUV attack happened before the prisoner thing. If they wanted to get even for that they could have put sacks on their heads and photographed them with dog leashes, even smeared doo on them, they didn't have to kill them and burn them.



So you think if they see us as occupiers, anyone from the U S or people who look like they are from the U S are open season to be killed, even civilians there to help? A lot of people have been 'occupied' over the years in a lot of places, but they don't behave like this. I am appalled at the amount of excuses made and attempts to 'understand' and justify this action. There is NO EXCUSE you could post links all day, it doesn't matter, of course people hate people for various reasons, civilized human beings do not act like this.

I also want an answer to my question about hate crime. This was a hate crime, the people were killed because of their nationality. I ask again, if a person is killed because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation, like the gay guy who was tortured, killed and nailed to a fence out in Wyoming a few years back, would you be coming up with 'reasons' why they did it? Would you care to 'see the other side' about what in their pasts made them do it? Would you be digging up and posting links about how they felt leading to why they did it? No, you'd just say, they were sick, evil, ignorant bastards, and there is no excuse. I agree, and that's also how I feel about the Iraqis who did this.

I don't know how to explain any more than I have that their hate for us, and their reasons for hating us, don't justifiy this, explain it, or make it more understandable in any way. I'll try one other analogy you'll only make fun of, but here goes. I saw one of those Real Stories of the Highway patrol shows where they film calls they go on. There was a woman who had been beaten by her husband, who had fled to a friend's nearby trailer. The cops found the husband and asked him if he beat his wife. He said, yes, he did, because she didn't do the dishes or vaccum the floor, she yelled at him in humiliated him in front of his friends, and he went on to list reasons he beat her as if the cops would go, oh, okay, no wonder you beat her, oh well. But no, they said it didn't matter WHAT happened, what she did or didn't do, he had no right or no call to hurt her, end of story, they cuffed him and took him away. There is no reason, no poll, no story in this world that will make me understand and accept what those Iraqis did. It seems like so many of you are thinking, well who can blame them after the way the Americans treated them! You might deny it but that's exactly how it looks.




Personally, I'm for leaving. I don't know what you bleeding heart types think you can do to change this, they don't think like you, hell even I don't think like you and you can't change my mind, what makes you think you can completely change a person's raising, culture, society, attitude and makeup just by trying to be nice? Nice people fixing the power station were killed, and so would you be if you went over there. You're wasting your time defending them, they don't deserve it.

You would be better to put more energy into feeling sorry for the people in that SUV who suffered in horror, died horribly, and then had their remains treated in disrespectful ways, and their families back home who must be agonizing and grieving over having their loved ones suffer such a fate. Other than Anitram, I have seen not one ounce of sympathy for these people, but there has been plenty for the Iraqis who did this to them. I can't say how physically ill that makes me.

It doesn't matter whether or not we agree with their reasoning. I don't know how many times I can say that exact phrase, or variations of it, before it gets through to you. Obviously, no one in this thread agrees that they were justified in their reaction, but this is what happened, and those are their feelings behind it. To oversimplify things by essentially saying, "Oh so we put some bags over their heads, they need to get over it," is frankly disgusting, and willfully ignores the ACTUAL situation and its broader implications. I actually can't believe that you think that things are that simple, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that kind of thinking, since that's what's led to this mess anyway.

To address your statement about hate crimes (even though you've ignored any questions or statements directed at you, preferring instead to just spout off more rhetoric), I think the difference between hate crimes and the current situation in Iraq is the scope. Your analogy about the beaten wife holds very little water because it essentially absolves the US from any wrongdoing, or mishandling of the situation. I AM NOT SAYING THAT AMERICA/AMERICANS deserve the all the hatred directed towards them, NOR AM I SAYING that the attacks were justified. However, the Iraqis, in their view, see themselves as the battered wife, lashing out against the bigger, stronger abusive husband. They view us as occupiers who have abused their power. And in that, they're right. To say it again so you don't think I looooove terrorists, that is not a good reason to kill people. But that's what they're doing, and that's their reasoning. But you refuse to see that. You'd rather just see them as evil, end of story. The problem with that line of reasoning is that it paints you into a corner. And indeed, no matter how much you decry the "bleeding heart liberal" approach, you've yet to offer any alternative besides trying and arresting them. And while that works in the short term it doesn't address the larger problem. The fact is that both sides have dirty hands in this mess, and since the Iraqis won't take the high ground and try to resolve the situation with less violence, then it falls to the US to do it. And that means winning the war of "hearts and minds." That's not just more liberal bs either, and you know it.

Regarding my feelings about the deaths, I think it's terrible. (Didn't I already say something like this?) I have thought about it quite a bit, and actually had a nightmare about that situation last night. However I think it's a waste to pour all of my energy and feelings towards the situation into "feeling sorry" for the people who died. Yes, I do feel sad, and yes I do feel horrified, but that's not enough. I want to think about how to resolve this situation so that more people don't die. I see their deaths as unnecessary and preventable. To just pour all of my feelings into feeling sorry for them is just wallowing, and that's not productive.

Not that I expect you to read or respond to any of this.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

All I see are a couple of guys going to great lengths and great detail to make excuses for and plead understanding and justification for a heinous and brutal murder.

 

[ThatGuy]

Well then I obviously gave you too much credit. You have apparently not read anything I've said.

 

[BluberryPoptart]

You can't get beyond this

However, the Iraqis, in their view,

That's what makes it seem to me that you are saying their actions are justifiable and understandable. I'm saying, regardless of how they see it, there are ways to fight. Protest, as Verte76 said. Join the military, as Wildangel said. I will not excuse or accept any reasoning behing such despicable acts as blowing somebody up and dancing over their dead body. Never, for no reason.

Go ahead and go over there and try your 'bleeding heart' approach on them, and see how fast your dead mutilated body ends up on TV or online.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about hate crimes. If someone killed and mutilated a person because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation you would not be coming up with excuses of how they feel or view things, it would be a disgraceful and evil crime and their reasons for doing it would not matter. I say the same should apply here.