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Old 12-05-2001, 03:14 AM   #16
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Thank you for the clarification, DoctorGonzo. That does help me in making a bit more sense out of things.
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Old 12-05-2001, 03:35 AM   #17
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Actually, pulling support for Israel would be a good thing. Just sign an order that says the U.S will suspend funding to Israel until it complies with U.N Resolution 242, the UN Declaration Of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Right now, part of the problem is the fact they have the upper hand. 3 Billion dollars a year in U.S taxpayer funds to support their suspect policies gives them no incentive to halt their illegal actions and make any real strides toward peace. Many in the Israeli government believe Jews are a superior race and that they have the right to all the land in the area beacuse they are the "chosen people". So they have very little motivation to actually give up something significant as opposed to the little bits and peices they are offering.

My solution:

-Create a Palestinean state along the lines of the pre-1967 borders.

- Make Jerusalem an international city. It is too important to too many people to belong to any one government, especially a theocracy.

- Create a transport corridor between the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

- Make The Golan Heights a demilliterized zone. Put a few UN peackeepers in there with a standing mandate to bring in a larger, combat force to repel any nation or group attempting to remilliterize it.

- Garuntee the Right Of Return to all refugees. (Arabs are allowed to go back to the land they were forced out of when Israel launched Plan Dalet) Israel contends this would "destroy the Jewish state". Too bad. The people who were ethnicly-cleansed out of the area are garunteed their right to the land that was stolen from them beginning in 1948 by the U.N Declaration of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Israel doesn't want there to be a majority of non-Jews in the country. It wants to dictate the racial and religious makeup of the population and who gets to own land and have political power.

Didn't the Nazis do the same thing, and use the same methods to achieve their goals?

Of course they did, but no one is allowed to make the comparison, because Jews were victims of the Nazis. In fact, anyone who criticizes the Israeli government is open to being labled an anti-semite. Pro-Zionists love to drag out the Nazi references to smear their opponents.

And it always works.

I mean, when supporters of Israel call you a Nazi, it's pretty hard to live that one down.

And personally, I believe it degrades the very memory of all who died during the Halocaust. It is a cheap cop-out and ploy that insults all those who suffered under the Nazi regeime.

But many pro-Zionists know they can lay down the guilt-trip without having to back it up or even address and refute the charges made against them.

Roughly 90 billion has been spent supporting what Israel does, and they would love to keep the money flowing. It leaves them in a position where they have very little to lose in the whole scheme of things. They can use any means......and believe me, they do use any means to acheive their goals.

- Torture

- Assasination of people who may possibly commit crimes sometime in the future.

- Targeting of civillians and indiscriminate bombings of civillian population centers.

- A policy of Nuremberg-like laws limiting the rights of non Jews....even if they are Israeli citizens.

- Kidnapping

- Illegal expropriation of land

- Illegal settlement of land

- Ethnic Cleansing, not to far removed from what the Nazis themselves did to the Jews

A few quotes on Ethnic Cleansing from here:

Quote:
"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."
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"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
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"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
Quote:
"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.
Quote:
"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."
Remember folks, this is what our 3 billion dollars a year is paying to maintain.
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Old 12-05-2001, 09:20 AM   #18
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Islam has some similar history with the Jews and Christians, also, but it all starts to differ when we get to the story of Abram, Sarai, Hagar, Isaac, and Ishmael. Christian and Jews believe that the holy birthright (through which the true religion -salvation- would eventually arise) went to Isaac, and Muslims believe it went to Ishmael. This was a very important distinction.
I am quoting Oxtoby's "World Religions, Volume 2".

"Physically the Arabs, including Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, are said to be descendants of Abraham through his son Ishmael (Ismail in Arabic). Religiously, Abraham's faith in the One God, is the true islam that according to the Qur'an and Islamic 'tradition', provides the basis for the islamic faith."


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Old 12-05-2001, 09:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:

- Make Jerusalem an international city. It is too important to too many people to belong to any one government, especially a theocracy.
hey! that's my main theory. jerusalem is the center of the world's three major religions, it shouldn't belong to anyone. i think we should make jerusalem what vatican city is, it's only little country. then all three religions of the world can put religious leaders there, nobody will live there. the rest of israel can be divided between the israelies and the palestinians.





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Old 12-05-2001, 12:27 PM   #20
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I'm not going to contribute anything meaningful to this discussion but I do want to say it's heartening to say the least to see that a lot of Americans here wish they would withdraw their unilateral support for Israel!


I just don't understand what Sharon is doing...the F-16's are in the process of destroying the PLA's security infrastructures - the very entities that are charged with taking preventive measures and arresting the people responsible for these atrocities!
I find no logic in Sharon's logic....This man does not want peace at all.
It wasn't Arafat's helicopters that caused the carnage over the weekend...oh, this subject infuriates me so!!!
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Old 12-05-2001, 01:07 PM   #21
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I compare this situation to what would happen if Native Americas took back control of the United States. At one time they, in a sense, owned the land. They controlled everything in their own way.
If this were to happen, current, anglo-saxon Americans would be pissed off at what the Indians were doing, right? It would probably lead to conflict. right? Well, of course it would!
I can't side with either group, because I know the Jews controled the land eons ago and the Palestinians have controlled it for the majority of our modern history.
The solution is simple. One group can either decide to migrate to other area of the world and end all this violence, or both sides can understand that it is impossible to separate themselves from the rest of the world. I compare THIS situation to sharing a room with a brother or sister. When I was younger, my parent's house was so small, my sister and I had to share a room. I HATED this, because I wanted my own space, just as my sister. Unforunately we didn't have an extra room, so we worked with what we had. Sure there were squabbles and fights, but we always realized it was easier to respect each other and keep our cool, as opposed to fighting over "a line we drew through the middle of the floor".
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Old 12-05-2001, 08:41 PM   #22
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DoctorGonzo:

I pretty much agree with you up until this point:

Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
- Garuntee the Right Of Return to all refugees. (Arabs are allowed to go back to the land they were forced out of when Israel launched Plan Dalet) Israel contends this would "destroy the Jewish state". Too bad. The people who were ethnicly-cleansed out of the area are garunteed their right to the land that was stolen from them beginning in 1948 by the U.N Declaration of Human Rights and The Geneva Convention.

Israel doesn't want there to be a majority of non-Jews in the country. It wants to dictate the racial and religious makeup of the population and who gets to own land and have political power.
A huge reason that Israel is always grabbing land and new settlements is because they have not controlled immigration effectively; I am actually talking about the immigration of ethnic Jews from Russia, Europe, and to a lesser extent, the U.S. But when these Jews immigrate into already-crowded Israel, it pushes the need for settlements into Palestinian territories.

I think with two seperate states, Israel (designated for the Jews) and Palestine (designated for Palestinians), both parties can retian their own identity. In NEITHER case should religion mold the government into a theocracy (the majority of Israel's Jewish population is far more secular than most people realize).

So my solution is stricter bilateral imigration policy for Israel: no new Jews OR Palestinians. And the Palestinian state that I think should be formed would not only include land that Israel took in 1967, but ALSO land that Jordan and Syria assumed at that time. Israel recently offered about 97% of this territory, and my feeling is that Arafat would have accepted it if not for pressure from extremists.

Granted, EVERYONE will never be happy, but I think two independent states with reasonable borders is the best solution. I think Jewish people should have the right to exist with full rights and democracy in the Middle East; Osama bin Laden, Hamas, and other extremists do not think that any non-Muslims should be in the area. Perhaps when they allow me to open a Pentecostal Church or a Temple of Grasshoppers in Saudi Arabia, I will re-consider my views on Israeli immigration policy.

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Old 12-06-2001, 04:49 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
A huge reason that Israel is always grabbing land and new settlements is because they have not controlled immigration effectively; I am actually talking about the immigration of ethnic Jews from Russia, Europe, and to a lesser extent, the U.S. But when these Jews immigrate into already-crowded Israel, it pushes the need for settlements into Palestinian territories.
Does it?

I'm sorry that I can't remember where I read it (might be here some weeks ago) but the settlements are not meant to face the problem of immigrantion/overcrowding. An example is Hebron. This Palestinian city has 120,000 inhabitants (Palestinians). It also has 400 settlers (guarded by maybe at least as many Israeli soldiers). Couldn't these settlers live on land that originally belonged to Israel?
I mean, 400 people isn't that many and by placing them in an Israeli city it would decrease a lot of unrest. Of course, there also live settlers in/near other Palestinian cities, but they can also be placed in other Israeli cities. It would be a first, but important, step to a more peaceful situation.

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Old 12-06-2001, 10:09 AM   #24
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Agreed, Popmartijn, but I guess I was talking more about Israel as a whole than individual settlement areas, and over the span of the last 34 years. Today, I think Sharon may be using it as a (sinister) tactic to extend Israel's claims in the area, to maybe give them more room for future growth. I am not at all justifying over-immigration as an excuse for the settlements, because I think the settlements are wrong and a huge obstacle to the peace process, going in reverse of the way things should be going. I cited as a "need" but not one that I legitimize at all. I think their "need" is to pull back and to give the Palestinians an independent state with clearly defined borders.

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Old 12-06-2001, 02:23 PM   #25
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BIN LADEN IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SADAM IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SHARON IS EQUALLY AN ASSSSSSSSSSSS....

Sharon has the decency of going to ground 0, when he ordered a masacre on innocent Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebonon (Sabra and sharilla)...... Thousends and thousends of innocent men, women, and children were killed..... This man also decided to mess up the Camp David peace confrence during 2000, by making a lousy venture into Mount Temple with thousends of soldiers.... You ask me, this guy is a terrorist..... Along with Bin Laden and Sadam...... To hell with all them....

Peace,
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Old 12-06-2001, 02:27 PM   #26
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Sorry, by getting caught up in my anger toward those 3 ass holes....

But, My love and prayers go to the victims of the suicide bombing... Also, along with all the victims of terror....

Peace on earth,
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Old 12-07-2001, 03:52 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna:
BIN LADEN IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SADAM IS AN ASSSSSSSS
SHARON IS EQUALLY AN ASSSSSSSSSSSS....
You left out Arafat.
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Old 12-07-2001, 01:54 PM   #28
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yea, I don't like Arafat... But, in my oppinion, Sharon has done many more threatening things to the innocent... Arafat has made the public effort in going towards a peaceful path, though he has failed, he has made some sort of effort..... Though these bombings are being blamed on Arafat, he did not order these bombings... Where as Sharon ordered many masacres.......

Sharon is a much bigger ass then Arafat, he ranks up there with bin laden and Sadam...... Afrafat is a stinker though...
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Old 12-07-2001, 09:30 PM   #29
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Amna,

Arafat is as bad as any of them. He is an appalling man. If peace truly depends on the likes of Sharon and Arafat we are all doomed.

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Old 12-07-2001, 09:50 PM   #30
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Arafat is a bad man, in my oppinion.... However, I do think that he has made some sort of efforts to go towards a more peaceful way..... Camp David Accords in 2000 is an example.... They were almost at the verge of making REAL progress, however Sharon had to screw it all up..... This resulted in the second Intifada... I have not seen Sharon make any effort of going towards peace....... I do think that Arafat bull sh**s alot, but, he still looks more grounded then sharon...... Sharon, Bin Laden, Sadam, and Hitler are all devils in disguises.........

I'm not in any way saying that Arafat is a good man..... I just think that he isn't as bad as Sharon......

Peace out,
Amna
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