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Old 10-11-2003, 03:26 AM   #76
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Israel accepted the peace plan back in 2000/2001 but the Palestinians rejected it. For any Peace plan to go into effect, both sides have to accept. Israel has been willing, the Palestinians have not been.

The IDF is trained to provide security and defense for the Israely state. The IDF is one of the top professional military forces in the world. The IDF can fullfill any role, from conventional war fighting, to peacekeeping, to peacemaking. They can also be good policeman as well.

I can't say everyone who has ever served in the IDF was a good person, but you can't say that about any organization, even the Church or the Red Cross. There are only a view military's in the world that are as professional and well trained as the IDF. The members of the IDF are well educated and grow up in a society that is dedicated to democracy and human rights. Many of their Parents or Grandparents were murdered while in Europe during World War II. As an organization they despise unwarranted discrimination and human rights abuses because so many of their families went through hell during World War II.

At the same time, they are ready to do everything necessary in order to keep the nation of Israel safe and secure. They are ready to go after terrorist and anyone that threatens Israel anywhere and at anytime in order to prevent Israel from ceacing to exist. They are ready to everything they can in order to prevent the deaths of Israely civilians. If Palestinians would try to work with them, instead of engaging in terrorism and other unproductive actions, they could accomplish a lot of good things together. Unfortunately, primitive instincts prevail among the palestinians who have power and influence, and anyone caught helping the IDF is tortured and murdered without any trial.

"with the way IDF and Sharon are doing there job, its not getting better, is it?"

Israel has defended itself in four wars and before that, 6 million of their relatives, friends, and family members were murdered by the Nazi's, something I think many people tend to forget.

While the suicide bombings by the Terrorist are terrible and frightening, those attacks have failed. Israel today has the 22nd highest standard of living in the world. Israely's continue to work everyday despite the fear that Palestinian terrorist try to intill in them. Israely teens continue to go to disco's and crowded area's. If U2 decides to come to Tel Aviv again like they did on POPMART in 1997, Israely's will turn out in the tens of thousands again to support their favorite band. They will not let retarded Palestinian terrorist prevent them from seeing U2 or some other band or enjoying a night out with friends and family at a downtown Pub or Club.

Regardless of what happens, Israel will continue to enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world. But the Palestinians have a Standard of living of #98 in the world. They will continue to experience the hardships of that level of development as long as they continue to reject peace and support terrorism. Israel has its independent State and its high Standard of Living, everything most people want. The Palestinians do not have this and will never get it until they understand that terrorism and violence against Israel is the chief obstacle to their own progress.

The sad fact is, the people that the Palestinian terrorist hurt the most in the long run, is not the Israely's, but the very people they claim to be fighting for.

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Old 10-11-2003, 03:31 AM   #77
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The amount of land occupied in the West Bank is not a secret. Its also not really relevant to measuring the standard of living of most Palestinians. There are plenty of UN agencies that operate in Palestine and get the data they need in order to measure standard of living just like any other place in the world. Basic things like, life expectancy, literacy, per capita GDP, can be measured along with hundreds of other important factors that make up standard of living statistics. If the UNDP felt it was inaccurate or not possible to measure, they would not include it in the rankings.

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Old 10-11-2003, 07:13 AM   #78
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Originally posted by STING2

The amount of land occupied in the West Bank is not a secret. Its also not really relevant to measuring the standard of living of most Palestinians. There are plenty of UN agencies that operate in Palestine and get the data they need in order to measure standard of living just like any other place in the world. Basic things like, life expectancy, literacy, per capita GDP, can be measured along with hundreds of other important factors that make up standard of living statistics. If the UNDP felt it was inaccurate or not possible to measure, they would not include it in the rankings.
Wow, i think a lot of people love to spend a longer life under a occupation army.
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Old 10-11-2003, 09:14 AM   #79
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Witness for the prosecution

By Ari Shavit

Playwright Joshua Sobol has decided to support the petition of the pilots against flying combat missions in the territories. Cautious of drawing historical analogies, he sees dangerous signs of fascism in the Israeli public's chorus of support of militantism.


Buds of fascism

Joshua Sobol, in the past you were against refusal in the army. Now you are one of the writers who is supporting refusal. Why? What made you change your attitude?

"I became convinced that the Israeli government is not offering any alternative to the use of force. It took me time to reach that conclusion. Three years is no little time. But at the end of three years I found that the policy of this government is war. This government has no policy other than war."

You are an expert on fascism. Isn't there something hair-raising about a group of pilots in their flight fatigues and their eye-covering visor-helmets issuing a blunt political statement?

"The matter of the helmets and the fatigues seems to me completely trivial. As far as I am concerned, they could have appeared in pajamas. They could also have appeared in full nudity."

But still, it's not all that simple, is it? Isn't there something antidemocratic about officers in uniform rising up against an elected government?

`You may be right. Maybe the use of the fatigues and the helmets hurt the cause. It was theatrical and unnecessary. But that's not the main thing. The main thing is that these pilots are being sent to execute the policy of a government that is summed up by the use of force and solely by the use of force. They are being sent to carry out missions that are in the gray area of war crimes. When you drop a one-ton bomb on a densely populated area, it's impossible to feign innocence and say we didn't intend to kill innocent people. That's an oxymoron. It doesn't hold water."

Are you saying that Israel is today perpetrating a war crime?

"War crimes have a definition. The Geneva Convention and the annex to the Rome Convention stipulate that a systematic and prolonged policy of killing civilians is a war crime. So in the present case we have to examine whether such killing is being perpetrated or not. In retrospect, many civilians and children have been killed here. Too many innocent people have been killed here. And of the 2,400 Palestinians who have been killed, wanted individuals were not the majority. It's impossible to apologize day in and day out and say we didn't mean it. If there are so many civilian casualties on the other side, we have to stop. That is what the pilots wanted to say and in that they are right.

"There is also another point here. When the government adopts a mode of refusal, the citizens have to be war refusers. They have no other way out. The State of Israel is today refusing peace and that obligates its civilians and soldiers to refuse war."

What do you say to the fact that the vast majority of the Israeli public rejected the pilot's protest outright?

"That is exactly what is worrying me so much. The hysterical reaction proved how far uniformity of thought has taken hold in Israeli society. Apart from a few lone voices, everyone reacted as one chorus. The assault on the pilots and the assault on the writers and the assault on the university professors' petition frightened me. It was the reaction of one voice, one front, one thought. I see this as signs of a thrust toward fascism."

You see buds of fascism in the Israel of 2003?

"Certainly. The majority is still far from that, but I feel it from the side of the government establishment. I feel it in statements by army officers. In the way media people are falling into a uniform line. There is a falling into line in the Israeli society, and that term - falling into line - is a translation from the German: Gleichschaltrung."

Does that evoke associations for you?

"I don't draw analogies."

But you were the one who translated from the German, right?

"True, true. When people start talking about removing books from the school curriculum and talking about removing professors from the university, that is a direct translation from the German. I'm very sorry, it's a direct translation from the German. Students who call for the boycott of professors are a terrible indication of fascism."

So the analogy is reverberating within you, after all?

"It is reverberating within me. I regret very much having to say so. I am reminded of the well-known speech that [philospher Martin] Heidegger delivered in 1935 in which he stated that the time had come to purge German philosophy of modes of thought that were not purely German. And I am reminded that in the wake of that speech all the professors who didn't fall into line were removed. I want to tell our students that they are standing on the brink of the abyss; that if they take one small step they will truly fall into the fascist abyss.

"And another thing: The mentality of the government today is to break. It's a mentality of `ja, brechen,' that wells up from the depths of the Revisionist consciousness. Yes, to break. To break the single mothers, to break the port workers, to break the pilots. The government is in fact engaged in dismantling society. Both [Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon and Bibi [Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu] are unraveling the social fabric. The thought that guides them is a pathos-laden romantic approach. It's a fascistoid mentality."

So when you look around you today you see a lot of people toeing the line?

"Yes. There is a very serious phenomenon of conformism in the Israeli society. Therefore I am today taking a position alongside the individual who voices his outcry. I am coming out against the chorus. And believe me, it's no pleasure to be a dissident voice. I do not enjoy what I am saying to you. I feel bad about saying these things. It's hard for me to say these things. I would prefer to identify with the voice of the masses and to identify with the society in which I live. But I can't do that. When this is the state of affairs, I can't do that. I can no longer identify with what is going on here."

You said earlier that the government has no policy other than war. That is a very grave statement. What you are actually saying is that the prime minister, Ariel Sharon, is personally responsible for the continuation of the killing, are you not?

"Not personally, politically. And he is not the only one responsible. I impute equal responsibility to Arafat. But from our point of view as Israelis, Sharon and his policy have made us tread water for three years without progressing even one centimeter."

Do you consider Sharon a man of blood?

"I refrain from using crass expressions. But Sharon dragged us into the Lebanon War. Sharon established the settlements. And his visit to the Temple Mount sparked the conflagration. The conflagration brought him to power. In my opinion it is clear that a political solution will mean the evacuation of the settlements, and Arik Sharon is actually trying to distance the moment at which he will be forced to evacuate the settlements. Therefore, when the hudna was declared, I almost expected a targeted assassination that would put an end to it. When the assassination came, I reached the conclusion that the Palestinian terrorism that brought Sharon to power in the first place is in fact serving well his interests and the interests of his right-wing coalition. It is making it possible for them to stay in power, to expand settlements and to distance the political solution. The state of violence brought the right wing to power and the right wing is maintaining the state of violence in collaboration with the Palestinian extremists."

Are you saying that the prime minister of Israel is responsible for the death of thousands of people in the same sense that Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan were responsible for the death of more than 2,500 Israelis in the Yom Kippur War?

"On the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, one of the radio stations played a tape of Dayan from the beginning of the 1970s, in which he said that if he had to choose between the Egyptian proposals and Egyptian fire, he would prefer the latter. Dayan spoke contemptuously, arrogantly, but in the end he got both the Egyptian fire and the Egyptian proposals. It's the same with Sharon. In the end he will also get both the Palestinian proposals and the Palestinian fire. Worse, if he continues to follow the path he has embarked on, he will be responsible for ongoing bloodshed here that will end in some terrible historical spasm."


Theree's more, but I see the same thing happening here in the US.

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